For the most part, very little interpretation was required. - Edit 1
Before modification by Joel at 14/05/2012 01:59:26 AM
Though it seems you have already (re-)read them, since the post containing them was a response to one of your posts. Between this thread and that one, my answer to your question then and now is: I read the books, but clearly perceive what I read very differently than you do. Your (four) reference(s) last year to something in ToM that never actually happened is a good example. 
Be'lal Reborn remains a long shot, but I think Egwene broken is even money, mainly because of my impression the way she has been written has not only set her up for an epic fall, but encouraged many fans to cheer for one.
Be'lal Reborn remains a long shot, but I think Egwene broken is even money, mainly because of my impression the way she has been written has not only set her up for an epic fall, but encouraged many fans to cheer for one.Would you bet a thousand bucks, or even a beer, on that?
A beer, maybe; I am not such a spendthrift as to make a large wager on something so highly speculative.
Only the totally obtuse and blind would refuse to see the role crafted for Egwene in the LB. That Illtempest loved you for that post should tell you something. This was the woman who thought Egwene would collar Rand with the male a'dam when he came to Tar Valon and make him use Callandor, lead the circle of three and defeat the Dark One, all the while making Rand her slave. Or some such bizarre notion.
Your own ideas, while more reasonable sounding, are equally absurd given the direction Jordan took with the character. If you need any proof for Egwene's great role in the next book, you only need to see Brandon Sanderson's quote that Egwene PoVs in aMoL are as numerous as for Perrin and Mat, and that this was unsurprising, since she was one of the main characters. She is clearly going to form a solid part of the next book, and given the high chance of TAR being involved with the finale, and also the myriad of foreshadowings that she will be asked to kill Rand, there's about no way she's dying before the very end, if then.
Your own ideas, while more reasonable sounding, are equally absurd given the direction Jordan took with the character. If you need any proof for Egwene's great role in the next book, you only need to see Brandon Sanderson's quote that Egwene PoVs in aMoL are as numerous as for Perrin and Mat, and that this was unsurprising, since she was one of the main characters. She is clearly going to form a solid part of the next book, and given the high chance of TAR being involved with the finale, and also the myriad of foreshadowings that she will be asked to kill Rand, there's about no way she's dying before the very end, if then.
I never denied she has a great role; in a very real sense, the role I envision for her is greater than Rands, because if HE made the mistake of refusing to delegate or lacking the trust/confidence in others to rely on them, it would be a disaster. Fortunately, Rand is manifestly and increasingly better about delegating. Contrast Rand sending Narishma to retrieve Callandor with Egwene jumping into replace Bode at the last minute (without even deigning to tell anyone.) As for "myriad" foreshadowings she will be asked to kill Rand, there are at least as many foreshadowings of her being turned to the Shadow. Indeed, the only foreshadowing of her being asked to kill Rand (though feel free to refresh my memory of others) is one such, since HE asks it of her in the context of his being turned if captured. My belief remains that episode is more to drive home the general risk that holds for channelers than to foreshadow Egwene killing Rand (though bringing an army to confront him is making a good start toward the latter.)
Fresh from threads that forced me to remind people I was among Tebows harshest critics before embracing him, I must now remind others I was among Egwenes defenders right up until ToM, after which I lost all respect for her. I knew how Cannoli and lilltempest would react to that statement, but Egwene simply made herself literally indefensible. Justifying her behavior became a sisyphean task no longer worth the effort and increasingly unpleasant, so I stopped trying.
As for her as a leader, here is what Brandon had to say:
I was most fascinated with Egwene's progress as a leader through the entire series. And the things I was allowed to do because of what Jordan had done in Knife of Dreams and the set up in previous books, and then what was in the notes, was really exciting to me because she was able to come to encapsulate what a leader really is, I think. There are some great scenes in Gathering Storm that I got to be part of, where, you know, we've had Aes Sedai acting kind of as bullies, some of them. And we've had various people through various factions acting as bullies. And there has been this sense in the Wheel of Time that people believe that might makes right. And yet it doesn't, and the books imply that it doesn't. And Egwene is the first chance we've really got to see of someone with no might making an even better right.
Now, I'm not saying an authors opinion means you need to change your own, but this flies in the face of your idea that Jordan set Egwene up as the example of a bad leader, which will end with a spectacular fall from grace...
I was most fascinated with Egwene's progress as a leader through the entire series. And the things I was allowed to do because of what Jordan had done in Knife of Dreams and the set up in previous books, and then what was in the notes, was really exciting to me because she was able to come to encapsulate what a leader really is, I think. There are some great scenes in Gathering Storm that I got to be part of, where, you know, we've had Aes Sedai acting kind of as bullies, some of them. And we've had various people through various factions acting as bullies. And there has been this sense in the Wheel of Time that people believe that might makes right. And yet it doesn't, and the books imply that it doesn't. And Egwene is the first chance we've really got to see of someone with no might making an even better right.
Now, I'm not saying an authors opinion means you need to change your own, but this flies in the face of your idea that Jordan set Egwene up as the example of a bad leader, which will end with a spectacular fall from grace...
Well, a few things:
1) Sanderson is not Jordan,
2) I do not expect him to put all his cards on the table before the last book,
3) Assembling every soldier in the Westlands to prevent Rand doing what we know he MUST does not refute might making right and
4) is not an example of "someone with no might" doing anything.
That last point may be critical for understanding his statement, because it suggests he was referring to Egwenes ascent from Tar Valons dungeons to the stole. I agree she was an exemplary leader during the Seanchan assault, and for the most part before then (though, again, her whole "I am still Amyrlin no matter how much you beat me" seems less humility than it does proud martyr complex,) but she had few opportunities to be manipulative and domineering from the dungeon.
Egwene AS Amyrlin, both in Salidar and Tar Valon, has been a disturbingly manipulative and unilateral leader, notwithstanding her "reform" requiring the Hall notify her of and receive her input on any and all official decisions. Her idea of "cooperation" is devising ways to get those around her to perform her will without realizing it, and despite their staunch opposition. She does not employ the mailed fist, but only because she knows it is counterproductive; she is still every bit as absolutist as Elaida, just far more subtle (and thus more effective.)
Consider this, too, for what its worth:
Loialson:
In Lord of Chaos, Nynaeve and Elayne searched for something that would tie the Salidar Aes Sedai to Rand via Need in Tel'aran'rhiod.
Need led them to three things. First it led them to the White Tower, (where Elayne glimpsed Egwene briefly), then Need shifted Nynaeve and Elayne to a locked storeroom within the White Tower (they thought that was useless). After that, Need led them to the Bowl of the Winds. My questions are regarding the first two things Need brought them to.
On the first thing, was Need bringing them to Egwene?
Brandon Sanderson:
I believe it was Egwene.
Loialson:
In Lord of Chaos, Nynaeve and Elayne searched for something that would tie the Salidar Aes Sedai to Rand via Need in Tel'aran'rhiod.
Need led them to three things. First it led them to the White Tower, (where Elayne glimpsed Egwene briefly), then Need shifted Nynaeve and Elayne to a locked storeroom within the White Tower (they thought that was useless). After that, Need led them to the Bowl of the Winds. My questions are regarding the first two things Need brought them to.
On the first thing, was Need bringing them to Egwene?
Brandon Sanderson:
I believe it was Egwene.
OK, but I do not believe it worth very much. It could mean nothing more or less than the need for experience with Tel'aran'rhiod leading them to the person they knew best who was most knowledgeable about it. In fact, that is how I would bet.
And:
Brandon Sanderson
PRK (7 APRIL 2012)
Brandon tried to get moments for every character in A Memory of Light. Egwene is ready to be bad ass in the Last Battle; her character development is done.
Brandon Sanderson
PRK (7 APRIL 2012)
Brandon tried to get moments for every character in A Memory of Light. Egwene is ready to be bad ass in the Last Battle; her character development is done.
She can be a bad ass in the Last Battle and still be unmade by her own faults later, or be unmade by them and reformed before the Last Battle if she implements rather than merely noting the reform needed.
So, yeah, continue believing Egwene is headed for a fall and will soon die a broken woman. The author himself disagrees, and the books do too, but none of those has ever stopped a dedicated hater of Egwene before...
I imbibe neither Haterade nor Gatorade (actually, I DO despise college football, the SEC in particular and the Gators especially, but that is another, if eerily similar, discussion.) I simply call it like I see it, and am exhausted from trying to defend Egwenes inexcusable behavior. Her dedicated fans will no more accept that than her dedicated haters accepted my past excuses for her, but the relative merits of her behavior and attitude are independent of how any of us feel about her personally.