Active Users:1038 Time:18/12/2024 10:26:02 PM
Egwene made many things "clear;" I dug up all the ToM quotes for a post near this time last year Joel Send a noteboard - 11/05/2012 01:12:05 PM
I will see if I can dig up the link for you tomorrow if you do not find it first; I do not have many posts on the RAFO WoTMB, so it probably would not take either of us long, but I am headed to bed soon.
Egwene's entire storyline has been about expanding cooperation and the building of bridges. ToM only drove this home. In the Tower, she has a "dream team" of Silviana, the Black Ajah hunters, Nynaeve, Siuan, Leanne, the Novices. In the Hall, she just pushed through a reform which means that she can never again stuff it with her supporters and get her way. The Hall has more people who oppose her than support her, but she just ensured she can never ignore their voices.

Her "dream team" is composed of subordinates, not equals, and creating a covert internal affairs group within the Tower is hardly an example of Egwene sharing power or expanding access to it. The only reform I recall her pushing through the Hall was an amendment to Tower law forbidding the Hall meeting without (and thus making official decisions) without the knowledge and input of the Amyrlin and all Sitters, when she discovered and interrupted yet another clandestine meeting conspiring against her. Necessary and right as that was, it is also another example of Egwene increasing, not decreasing, her own authority at the expense of others. She granted the Hall exclusive control of the Tower army in exchange for exclusive authority to negotiate with the Dragon Reborn and all other heads of state, which she values very much. That is no more than an even trade at best, but even less given that she obviously desires the diplomatic authority very much and just as obviously values the martial authority not at all, since it long ago served its purpose in allowing her to command a march on and siege of Tar Valon. However, given her efforts to marshall every army in the Westlands to extort Rands compliance at Merrilor, that decision reflects dubious judgment, to say the least.

In the greater world, Egwene has just set up an open competition between the WO, the WF and the AS, one that means there's less reason to hide and secretly maneuver. And in the issues that matter, the Seanchan and the Shadow, these female channeling organizations will be together, making them that much better at dealing with these threats.

I would not call her attempts to integrate all other channeling organizations with the Tower an example of her sharing power either. She has not (so far...) tried to place the Wise Ones or Windfinders under Tower authority, per se, but only because of a personal bias in favor of the former than Elayne used to demand similar privileges for the Windfinders toward whom she holds a similar bias. Unfortunately for the Kin, they have no such personal connections with Egwene, and are consequently being reduced to a White Tower retirement home. Regardless, it is fairly clear who would gain most from Egwenes intent of making Tower trained Wise Ones and Wise One trained Aes Sedai the norm (hint: The only person with full membership in and extensive knowledge of both groups.) A CEO hiring more staff is not sharing or expanding access power access, particularly not when it takes the form of acquiring whole companies that were previously distinct. If Ford bought Chrysler it would not mean William Ford made Ford more democratic and inclusive, it would simply mean he expanded his leading role at Ford to include Chrysler.

As for the rulers, she was again very honest and forthright with them. She wants them, and she wants their armies, to show Rand a powerful united front. There's no secret plan here. And the rulers were not forced. No one was dragged to Merrilor. Those who didn't want to come due to threats to their home countries were given assurances of Traveling being made available to them. There was no "I'm Amyrlin, you come when I call!" about it.

Not many threats, no (those are reserved for Rand,) just a lot manipulation and influence peddling, which has always been far more Egwenes style than open coercion. Few rulers would respond well to threats anyway, particularly given the widespread distrust of Tar Valons influence and machinations, so the only threat is in the form of assurances Rands plan would be disastrous and thus strongly indicates he is already badly insane. It is still the Amyrlin marshalling every army in the Westlands to force her will on the Dragon Reborn for no better reason than her faith in her own uninformed infallibility.

As for male channelers: Of the supergirls, Egwene has the most quotes with positive things to say about them. She wanted to know why the Tower hadn't found a way to deal with them that didn't involve stilling. She was opposed to any attack on the Black Tower. She was opposed to killing or gentling Logain. She threatened stilling to a powerful Sitter who suggested forcibly bonding and compelling them to control them. She had no problems believing saidin was cleansed, and made it clear she expects the Red Ajah to change their purpose. She made it clear she doesn't think it makes sense to withhold angreal and ter'angreal attuned to men.

Yeah, see, threatening to still a Sitter for merely SUGGESTING a policy Egwene opposes is also not a great example of her sharing power or encouraging cooperation. "Cooperation" is more than simply increasing the number of people unquestioningly obeying her every command; it requires interaction rather than just recruitment. You listed many examples of the latter, but precious few of the former.

As for Rand's plan to break the Seals: exactly who did she browbeat into taking her view? Can we see some quotes?

Again, I combed through ToM about a year ago and found so many they took an hour or two to transcribe into a post I will look for tomorrow. In the interim, Egwene made herself quite "clear" to her Keeper in statements following the parlay where he revealed his plan and set the meeting at Merrilor, with which "The Amyrlin's Anger" concludes:
"We need allies," Egwene said. She took a deep breath. "He might be persuaded by people that he trusts." Or he might be forced to change his mind if confronted by a large enough group united to stop him.

It was now more vital that she speak with Elayne and Nynaeve.

She needs people he trusts to "persuade" him to do things her way; failing that, she needs an army to FORCE him. "Failing that" appears very likely, since her intent of pressuring Elayne, Nynaeve (and Perrin) into pressuring Rand to obey her did not go as smoothly as she "clearly" expected.

The most telling quote, however, is how that "vital" meeting DID go (and was described) in "A Vow:"
"I'm happy for you, Elayne," Egwene said. "And for Rand. I'm not certain what I think of the timing. You should know that Rand is planning to break the remaining seals upon the Dark One's prison, and in so doing, risk releading him upon the world."

Elayne pursed her lips. "Well, there are only three seals left, and they're crumbling."

"So what if he is running that risk?" Nynaeve said. "The Dark One will be freed when the final seeal crumbles; best if it happens when Rand is there to battle him."

"Yes, but the seals? That's foolhardy. Surely Rand can face the Dark One, and defeat him, and seal him away without taking that risk."

"Maybe you're right," Nynaeve said.

Elayne looked troubled.

This was a more lukewarm reception than Egwene had expected. She'd thought that the Wise Ones would resist her, while Nynaeve adn Elayne would immediately see the danger.

Nynaeve has been around him too much, Egwene thought. She was likely caught up by his ta'veren nature. The Pattern bent around him. Those near him would begin to see things his way, would work—unconsciously—to see his will done.

That had to be the explanation. Normally, Nynaeve was so levelheaded about these sorts of things. Or... well, Nynaeve wasn't exactly levelheaded, really. But she generally did see the right way things needed to be done, so long as that right way didn't her being wrong.

That last line is a CLASSIC example of what the literary world refers to as "irony:" Egwene faults Nynaeve for the very thing she is herself doing. Mercifully, she then changes the subject, probably because they gave her a much "more lukewarm reception than Egwene had expected" (Sanderson used almost the exact words I did, probably because I unconsciously recalled the statement.) Considering that immediately before they met Elayne she was manipulating Nynaeve into public obeisance, Nynaeve may be very grateful Egwenes only response to dissent was ignoring it. If she had the sense her new position requires she might have paused to consider there might be good reason why, immediately before THAT, the "Flame of Tar Valon" on the Tower window changed to include the "Dragons Fang" (as it did when there were Aes Sedai of both genders.) At this point, I would consider Gabrelle or even Pevara better Amyrlins for THAT Tower.

Elayne and Nynaeve stated PRECISELY Rands rationale for breaking the Seals; Egwene responded by completely ignoring those strong arguments and reiterating her own adamant position based on pure speculation. If she does that at Merrilor I strongly doubt the assembled armies will even try compelling Rand to obey.

In every way since KoD, Egwene represents the "ideal leader", that Rand also became after his epiphany. She is far from perfect, and as DomA said, she still has to prove that she can rule well in "peace-time", but your central point that she embodies the isolated, domineering leader is totally without basis.

That is your opinion, to which you are entitled, but mine is closer to Elaynes (a FAR better ruler,) who tells her brother in "A Good Soup" that

"Birgitte keeps telling me I need to learn to be more temperate. Well, you'll need to learn the same thing, for Egwene's sake. And she does need you, Gawyn. She may not realize it; she may be convinced she needs to hold up the world herself. She's wrong."

Amen.

My own belief remains that ToM was Egwenes summit of achievement, and crammed with instances of her manipulating everyone in sight then mentally patting herself on the back each time (as she did with the Wise Ones on the subject of "exchange students" while poisoning them against Rands plan to break the Seals.) She seems to have no idea the Seanchan attack on Tar Valon was merely a raid preliminary to full scale assault, despite the fact her Dreamed encounter with a Seanchan woman has yet to occu. Yet, assuming she manages to navigate that unexpected pitfall, plenty of others await her serene confidence in her own infallibility. It is not as if she seeks much counsel from surbordinates (which she seems to think includes everyone) that might alert her to the dangers she yet faces. Egwene does not "build bridges," she ties and pulls strings. She is interested in building "cooperation," but only cooperation on behalf of HER goals, usually without sharing any more of them than absolutely necessary to secure the "cooperation" (i.e. pliability) she requires. She is a recruiter, not a consensus builder. Consensus building demands the ability to consider multiple propositions, and more interaction with others than simply applying every carrot, stick and lever needed to secure their acquiesence.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.

Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!

LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Reply to message
The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed. - 03/05/2012 03:52:14 PM 4947 Views
It's pretty damn cool. - 03/05/2012 03:59:36 PM 2592 Views
Re: The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed. - 03/05/2012 04:08:09 PM 2723 Views
Re: The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed. - 03/05/2012 04:17:19 PM 2689 Views
the pit of doom is hot - 12/06/2012 01:57:18 AM 2188 Views
I think I like Callandor from TDR better.. - 03/05/2012 04:26:42 PM 2743 Views
yes. I sincerely doubt she has that kind of competency - 03/05/2012 05:52:22 PM 2610 Views
Re: I think I like Callandor from TDR better.. - 04/05/2012 11:10:49 AM 2460 Views
Heh - Cannoli-baiting *NM* - 04/05/2012 04:46:51 PM 1958 Views
*NM* - 05/05/2012 09:04:15 PM 1877 Views
Re: The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed. - 03/05/2012 05:06:19 PM 2363 Views
I really like it - 03/05/2012 05:54:51 PM 2639 Views
The sword grip is not akward or wrong - 03/05/2012 06:20:54 PM 2378 Views
something like this? - 03/05/2012 06:46:59 PM 2952 Views
Its the sword thats not a sword (its a night light!) - 04/05/2012 04:47:27 PM 2383 Views
oh no fair enough! like i said, I just think it looks a little awkward. - 04/05/2012 10:04:21 PM 2326 Views
Me, too! - 12/05/2012 01:18:06 AM 2434 Views
Well... - 03/05/2012 06:09:51 PM 2740 Views
I think it is EG and Nyn - 03/05/2012 06:24:13 PM 2429 Views
Pretty sure it's Mo and Nyn - 03/05/2012 06:40:49 PM 2477 Views
Yeah... - 03/05/2012 07:55:32 PM 2390 Views
when did Nynaeve cut her hair? - 08/05/2012 07:33:04 PM 3951 Views
It was burned off during her testing for the shawl. - 12/06/2012 02:53:43 AM 3127 Views
Egwene is a distinct possibility... - 03/05/2012 11:37:48 PM 2528 Views
She is - 04/05/2012 12:15:21 AM 2619 Views
I don't know... - 04/05/2012 12:25:53 AM 2353 Views
Re: I don't know... - 04/05/2012 02:47:02 AM 2526 Views
I'm not disagreeing with most of that... - 08/05/2012 02:58:53 AM 2225 Views
"You expect me to wise up?" "No, Egwene, I expect you to DIE!" - 11/05/2012 01:36:09 AM 2450 Views
What books have you been reading? - 11/05/2012 01:57:31 AM 2478 Views
Egwene made many things "clear;" I dug up all the ToM quotes for a post near this time last year - 11/05/2012 01:12:05 PM 2283 Views
I agree - 11/05/2012 02:51:38 PM 2575 Views
The other quotes you requested, as promised. - 13/05/2012 03:29:41 AM 2552 Views
You misinterpreting quotes is hardly worth requoting... - 13/05/2012 11:36:21 AM 2240 Views
Agreed - 13/05/2012 03:39:12 PM 2347 Views
Exactly... - 13/05/2012 05:53:17 PM 2306 Views
Never said she was evil, just wrong. Horribly and tragically wrong. - 14/05/2012 02:34:27 AM 2365 Views
- 14/05/2012 04:23:21 AM 2268 Views
Re- - 21/05/2012 02:43:49 AM 2739 Views
Principle protagonists can still experience epic falls. - 14/05/2012 02:21:42 AM 2342 Views
Then she wouldn't be a "protagonist" - 14/05/2012 04:38:34 AM 2296 Views
Again, I never said she is or will become evil. - 21/05/2012 03:03:32 AM 2455 Views
Re: Principle protagonists can still experience epic falls. - 14/05/2012 08:32:50 AM 2402 Views
Re: Principle protagonists can still experience epic falls. - 21/05/2012 03:28:48 AM 2238 Views
For the most part, very little interpretation was required. - 14/05/2012 01:58:26 AM 2462 Views
Re: For the most part, very little interpretation was required. - 14/05/2012 03:51:31 AM 2641 Views
Re: For the most part, very little interpretation was required. - 14/05/2012 06:41:32 AM 2406 Views
Yeah... - 14/05/2012 07:47:16 AM 2420 Views
Re: Yeah... - 14/05/2012 04:40:49 PM 2472 Views
Re: For the most part, very little interpretation was required. - 21/05/2012 06:21:48 AM 2383 Views
Look at their foreheads - 16/05/2012 08:38:51 AM 2474 Views
Re: I think it is EG and Nyn - 03/05/2012 07:38:36 PM 2433 Views
I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too - 03/05/2012 09:05:58 PM 2275 Views
Re: I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too - 03/05/2012 11:28:42 PM 2419 Views
Idea - 04/05/2012 10:11:05 AM 2406 Views
Re: Idea - 04/05/2012 12:09:17 PM 2389 Views
Or.... - 04/05/2012 12:19:16 PM 2273 Views
This would explain the hidden hand - 04/05/2012 08:54:00 PM 2423 Views
That's a good point. - 04/05/2012 08:59:41 PM 2550 Views
Nah... - 07/05/2012 01:56:13 PM 2479 Views
Can you draw a blade - 08/05/2012 06:00:28 AM 2404 Views
It depens on the construction of the scabbard - 10/05/2012 01:36:30 PM 2326 Views
Re: I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too - 04/05/2012 02:49:51 PM 1489 Views
Re: I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too - 04/05/2012 07:42:12 PM 2516 Views
Re: I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too - 07/05/2012 08:02:26 PM 2337 Views
Re: I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too - 07/05/2012 09:32:45 PM 2551 Views
Thanks! *NM* - 13/05/2012 10:56:06 AM 2304 Views
Re: The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed. - 03/05/2012 07:25:37 PM 2283 Views
Re: The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed. - 03/05/2012 07:36:09 PM 2403 Views
It's his left hand Rand lost *NM* - 03/05/2012 08:00:01 PM 1900 Views
Thanks for the imput! *NM* - 03/05/2012 08:24:59 PM 2269 Views
I does not look like Nynaeve and Moiraine - 03/05/2012 11:39:01 PM 2358 Views
Nynaeve has cut her braid and has her hair shoulder length in TOM.... - 03/05/2012 11:44:50 PM 2497 Views
Re: Nynaeve has cut her braid and has her hair shoulder length in TOM.... - 03/05/2012 11:51:02 PM 3336 Views
Am I the only one who sees the red dot in her forehead? *NM* - 09/05/2012 08:36:53 PM 1932 Views
looks *$%$%*@ great *NM* - 04/05/2012 02:47:00 AM 2011 Views
i quite like it! as far as the women go... - 04/05/2012 06:38:10 PM 2490 Views
No Maidens of the Spear - 05/05/2012 05:09:27 PM 2481 Views
Re: No Maidens of the Spear - 07/05/2012 02:02:36 PM 2579 Views
nynaeve with no braid?.... are we sure its not egwene? or did no one tell him the hairstyles? *NM* - 08/05/2012 06:48:49 PM 1821 Views
Nyn cut her braid off. *NM* - 08/05/2012 06:55:02 PM 2056 Views
I thought it was burned off during her test for Aes Sedaihood. *NM* - 08/05/2012 07:25:51 PM 907 Views
I don't remember this at all *NM* - 08/05/2012 07:51:04 PM 2047 Views
Regarding the identities of the women on the back: - 09/05/2012 08:52:47 PM 2586 Views
What the hell is on the ground close to the bottom edge of the picture? *NM* - 10/05/2012 05:55:07 AM 1985 Views
A misplaced logo? *NM* - 10/05/2012 08:24:52 AM 1924 Views
Possibly one of the Seals? - 11/05/2012 01:42:13 AM 2396 Views
agreed - 10/05/2012 07:16:39 AM 2473 Views
Partially concur - 10/05/2012 01:17:31 PM 2279 Views
She's in the Pit of F*ing Doom. Ben Stein would be excited *NM* - 12/05/2012 04:22:44 AM 875 Views
i agree with the big about how Moiraine should be depicted - 12/05/2012 11:04:53 PM 1321 Views
you can see a second weapon in Rand's belt too - 13/05/2012 08:51:34 PM 1271 Views
That looks pretty cool, better than most of the other WoT covers - 26/06/2012 07:37:29 AM 1100 Views

Reply to Message