Egwene made many things "clear;" I dug up all the ToM quotes for a post near this time last year
Joel Send a noteboard - 11/05/2012 01:12:05 PM
I will see if I can dig up the link for you tomorrow if you do not find it first; I do not have many posts on the RAFO WoTMB, so it probably would not take either of us long, but I am headed to bed soon.
Her "dream team" is composed of subordinates, not equals, and creating a covert internal affairs group within the Tower is hardly an example of Egwene sharing power or expanding access to it. The only reform I recall her pushing through the Hall was an amendment to Tower law forbidding the Hall meeting without (and thus making official decisions) without the knowledge and input of the Amyrlin and all Sitters, when she discovered and interrupted yet another clandestine meeting conspiring against her. Necessary and right as that was, it is also another example of Egwene increasing, not decreasing, her own authority at the expense of others. She granted the Hall exclusive control of the Tower army in exchange for exclusive authority to negotiate with the Dragon Reborn and all other heads of state, which she values very much. That is no more than an even trade at best, but even less given that she obviously desires the diplomatic authority very much and just as obviously values the martial authority not at all, since it long ago served its purpose in allowing her to command a march on and siege of Tar Valon. However, given her efforts to marshall every army in the Westlands to extort Rands compliance at Merrilor, that decision reflects dubious judgment, to say the least.
I would not call her attempts to integrate all other channeling organizations with the Tower an example of her sharing power either. She has not (so far...) tried to place the Wise Ones or Windfinders under Tower authority, per se, but only because of a personal bias in favor of the former than Elayne used to demand similar privileges for the Windfinders toward whom she holds a similar bias. Unfortunately for the Kin, they have no such personal connections with Egwene, and are consequently being reduced to a White Tower retirement home. Regardless, it is fairly clear who would gain most from Egwenes intent of making Tower trained Wise Ones and Wise One trained Aes Sedai the norm (hint: The only person with full membership in and extensive knowledge of both groups.) A CEO hiring more staff is not sharing or expanding access power access, particularly not when it takes the form of acquiring whole companies that were previously distinct. If Ford bought Chrysler it would not mean William Ford made Ford more democratic and inclusive, it would simply mean he expanded his leading role at Ford to include Chrysler.
Not many threats, no (those are reserved for Rand,) just a lot manipulation and influence peddling, which has always been far more Egwenes style than open coercion. Few rulers would respond well to threats anyway, particularly given the widespread distrust of Tar Valons influence and machinations, so the only threat is in the form of assurances Rands plan would be disastrous and thus strongly indicates he is already badly insane. It is still the Amyrlin marshalling every army in the Westlands to force her will on the Dragon Reborn for no better reason than her faith in her own uninformed infallibility.
Yeah, see, threatening to still a Sitter for merely SUGGESTING a policy Egwene opposes is also not a great example of her sharing power or encouraging cooperation. "Cooperation" is more than simply increasing the number of people unquestioningly obeying her every command; it requires interaction rather than just recruitment. You listed many examples of the latter, but precious few of the former.
Again, I combed through ToM about a year ago and found so many they took an hour or two to transcribe into a post I will look for tomorrow. In the interim, Egwene made herself quite "clear" to her Keeper in statements following the parlay where he revealed his plan and set the meeting at Merrilor, with which "The Amyrlin's Anger" concludes:
She needs people he trusts to "persuade" him to do things her way; failing that, she needs an army to FORCE him. "Failing that" appears very likely, since her intent of pressuring Elayne, Nynaeve (and Perrin) into pressuring Rand to obey her did not go as smoothly as she "clearly" expected.
The most telling quote, however, is how that "vital" meeting DID go (and was described) in "A Vow:"
That last line is a CLASSIC example of what the literary world refers to as "irony:" Egwene faults Nynaeve for the very thing she is herself doing. Mercifully, she then changes the subject, probably because they gave her a much "more lukewarm reception than Egwene had expected" (Sanderson used almost the exact words I did, probably because I unconsciously recalled the statement.) Considering that immediately before they met Elayne she was manipulating Nynaeve into public obeisance, Nynaeve may be very grateful Egwenes only response to dissent was ignoring it. If she had the sense her new position requires she might have paused to consider there might be good reason why, immediately before THAT, the "Flame of Tar Valon" on the Tower window changed to include the "Dragons Fang" (as it did when there were Aes Sedai of both genders.) At this point, I would consider Gabrelle or even Pevara better Amyrlins for THAT Tower.
Elayne and Nynaeve stated PRECISELY Rands rationale for breaking the Seals; Egwene responded by completely ignoring those strong arguments and reiterating her own adamant position based on pure speculation. If she does that at Merrilor I strongly doubt the assembled armies will even try compelling Rand to obey.
That is your opinion, to which you are entitled, but mine is closer to Elaynes (a FAR better ruler,) who tells her brother in "A Good Soup" that
Amen.
My own belief remains that ToM was Egwenes summit of achievement, and crammed with instances of her manipulating everyone in sight then mentally patting herself on the back each time (as she did with the Wise Ones on the subject of "exchange students" while poisoning them against Rands plan to break the Seals.) She seems to have no idea the Seanchan attack on Tar Valon was merely a raid preliminary to full scale assault, despite the fact her Dreamed encounter with a Seanchan woman has yet to occu. Yet, assuming she manages to navigate that unexpected pitfall, plenty of others await her serene confidence in her own infallibility. It is not as if she seeks much counsel from surbordinates (which she seems to think includes everyone) that might alert her to the dangers she yet faces. Egwene does not "build bridges," she ties and pulls strings. She is interested in building "cooperation," but only cooperation on behalf of HER goals, usually without sharing any more of them than absolutely necessary to secure the "cooperation" (i.e. pliability) she requires. She is a recruiter, not a consensus builder. Consensus building demands the ability to consider multiple propositions, and more interaction with others than simply applying every carrot, stick and lever needed to secure their acquiesence.
Egwene's entire storyline has been about expanding cooperation and the building of bridges. ToM only drove this home. In the Tower, she has a "dream team" of Silviana, the Black Ajah hunters, Nynaeve, Siuan, Leanne, the Novices. In the Hall, she just pushed through a reform which means that she can never again stuff it with her supporters and get her way. The Hall has more people who oppose her than support her, but she just ensured she can never ignore their voices.
Her "dream team" is composed of subordinates, not equals, and creating a covert internal affairs group within the Tower is hardly an example of Egwene sharing power or expanding access to it. The only reform I recall her pushing through the Hall was an amendment to Tower law forbidding the Hall meeting without (and thus making official decisions) without the knowledge and input of the Amyrlin and all Sitters, when she discovered and interrupted yet another clandestine meeting conspiring against her. Necessary and right as that was, it is also another example of Egwene increasing, not decreasing, her own authority at the expense of others. She granted the Hall exclusive control of the Tower army in exchange for exclusive authority to negotiate with the Dragon Reborn and all other heads of state, which she values very much. That is no more than an even trade at best, but even less given that she obviously desires the diplomatic authority very much and just as obviously values the martial authority not at all, since it long ago served its purpose in allowing her to command a march on and siege of Tar Valon. However, given her efforts to marshall every army in the Westlands to extort Rands compliance at Merrilor, that decision reflects dubious judgment, to say the least.
In the greater world, Egwene has just set up an open competition between the WO, the WF and the AS, one that means there's less reason to hide and secretly maneuver. And in the issues that matter, the Seanchan and the Shadow, these female channeling organizations will be together, making them that much better at dealing with these threats.
I would not call her attempts to integrate all other channeling organizations with the Tower an example of her sharing power either. She has not (so far...) tried to place the Wise Ones or Windfinders under Tower authority, per se, but only because of a personal bias in favor of the former than Elayne used to demand similar privileges for the Windfinders toward whom she holds a similar bias. Unfortunately for the Kin, they have no such personal connections with Egwene, and are consequently being reduced to a White Tower retirement home. Regardless, it is fairly clear who would gain most from Egwenes intent of making Tower trained Wise Ones and Wise One trained Aes Sedai the norm (hint: The only person with full membership in and extensive knowledge of both groups.) A CEO hiring more staff is not sharing or expanding access power access, particularly not when it takes the form of acquiring whole companies that were previously distinct. If Ford bought Chrysler it would not mean William Ford made Ford more democratic and inclusive, it would simply mean he expanded his leading role at Ford to include Chrysler.
As for the rulers, she was again very honest and forthright with them. She wants them, and she wants their armies, to show Rand a powerful united front. There's no secret plan here. And the rulers were not forced. No one was dragged to Merrilor. Those who didn't want to come due to threats to their home countries were given assurances of Traveling being made available to them. There was no "I'm Amyrlin, you come when I call!" about it.
Not many threats, no (those are reserved for Rand,) just a lot manipulation and influence peddling, which has always been far more Egwenes style than open coercion. Few rulers would respond well to threats anyway, particularly given the widespread distrust of Tar Valons influence and machinations, so the only threat is in the form of assurances Rands plan would be disastrous and thus strongly indicates he is already badly insane. It is still the Amyrlin marshalling every army in the Westlands to force her will on the Dragon Reborn for no better reason than her faith in her own uninformed infallibility.
As for male channelers: Of the supergirls, Egwene has the most quotes with positive things to say about them. She wanted to know why the Tower hadn't found a way to deal with them that didn't involve stilling. She was opposed to any attack on the Black Tower. She was opposed to killing or gentling Logain. She threatened stilling to a powerful Sitter who suggested forcibly bonding and compelling them to control them. She had no problems believing saidin was cleansed, and made it clear she expects the Red Ajah to change their purpose. She made it clear she doesn't think it makes sense to withhold angreal and ter'angreal attuned to men.
Yeah, see, threatening to still a Sitter for merely SUGGESTING a policy Egwene opposes is also not a great example of her sharing power or encouraging cooperation. "Cooperation" is more than simply increasing the number of people unquestioningly obeying her every command; it requires interaction rather than just recruitment. You listed many examples of the latter, but precious few of the former.
As for Rand's plan to break the Seals: exactly who did she browbeat into taking her view? Can we see some quotes?
Again, I combed through ToM about a year ago and found so many they took an hour or two to transcribe into a post I will look for tomorrow. In the interim, Egwene made herself quite "clear" to her Keeper in statements following the parlay where he revealed his plan and set the meeting at Merrilor, with which "The Amyrlin's Anger" concludes:
"We need allies," Egwene said. She took a deep breath. "He might be persuaded by people that he trusts." Or he might be forced to change his mind if confronted by a large enough group united to stop him.
It was now more vital that she speak with Elayne and Nynaeve.
It was now more vital that she speak with Elayne and Nynaeve.
She needs people he trusts to "persuade" him to do things her way; failing that, she needs an army to FORCE him. "Failing that" appears very likely, since her intent of pressuring Elayne, Nynaeve (and Perrin) into pressuring Rand to obey her did not go as smoothly as she "clearly" expected.
The most telling quote, however, is how that "vital" meeting DID go (and was described) in "A Vow:"
"I'm happy for you, Elayne," Egwene said. "And for Rand. I'm not certain what I think of the timing. You should know that Rand is planning to break the remaining seals upon the Dark One's prison, and in so doing, risk releading him upon the world."
Elayne pursed her lips. "Well, there are only three seals left, and they're crumbling."
"So what if he is running that risk?" Nynaeve said. "The Dark One will be freed when the final seeal crumbles; best if it happens when Rand is there to battle him."
"Yes, but the seals? That's foolhardy. Surely Rand can face the Dark One, and defeat him, and seal him away without taking that risk."
"Maybe you're right," Nynaeve said.
Elayne looked troubled.
This was a more lukewarm reception than Egwene had expected. She'd thought that the Wise Ones would resist her, while Nynaeve adn Elayne would immediately see the danger.
Nynaeve has been around him too much, Egwene thought. She was likely caught up by his ta'veren nature. The Pattern bent around him. Those near him would begin to see things his way, would work—unconsciously—to see his will done.
That had to be the explanation. Normally, Nynaeve was so levelheaded about these sorts of things. Or... well, Nynaeve wasn't exactly levelheaded, really. But she generally did see the right way things needed to be done, so long as that right way didn't her being wrong.
Elayne pursed her lips. "Well, there are only three seals left, and they're crumbling."
"So what if he is running that risk?" Nynaeve said. "The Dark One will be freed when the final seeal crumbles; best if it happens when Rand is there to battle him."
"Yes, but the seals? That's foolhardy. Surely Rand can face the Dark One, and defeat him, and seal him away without taking that risk."
"Maybe you're right," Nynaeve said.
Elayne looked troubled.
This was a more lukewarm reception than Egwene had expected. She'd thought that the Wise Ones would resist her, while Nynaeve adn Elayne would immediately see the danger.
Nynaeve has been around him too much, Egwene thought. She was likely caught up by his ta'veren nature. The Pattern bent around him. Those near him would begin to see things his way, would work—unconsciously—to see his will done.
That had to be the explanation. Normally, Nynaeve was so levelheaded about these sorts of things. Or... well, Nynaeve wasn't exactly levelheaded, really. But she generally did see the right way things needed to be done, so long as that right way didn't her being wrong.
That last line is a CLASSIC example of what the literary world refers to as "irony:" Egwene faults Nynaeve for the very thing she is herself doing. Mercifully, she then changes the subject, probably because they gave her a much "more lukewarm reception than Egwene had expected" (Sanderson used almost the exact words I did, probably because I unconsciously recalled the statement.) Considering that immediately before they met Elayne she was manipulating Nynaeve into public obeisance, Nynaeve may be very grateful Egwenes only response to dissent was ignoring it. If she had the sense her new position requires she might have paused to consider there might be good reason why, immediately before THAT, the "Flame of Tar Valon" on the Tower window changed to include the "Dragons Fang" (as it did when there were Aes Sedai of both genders.) At this point, I would consider Gabrelle or even Pevara better Amyrlins for THAT Tower.
Elayne and Nynaeve stated PRECISELY Rands rationale for breaking the Seals; Egwene responded by completely ignoring those strong arguments and reiterating her own adamant position based on pure speculation. If she does that at Merrilor I strongly doubt the assembled armies will even try compelling Rand to obey.
In every way since KoD, Egwene represents the "ideal leader", that Rand also became after his epiphany. She is far from perfect, and as DomA said, she still has to prove that she can rule well in "peace-time", but your central point that she embodies the isolated, domineering leader is totally without basis.
That is your opinion, to which you are entitled, but mine is closer to Elaynes (a FAR better ruler,) who tells her brother in "A Good Soup" that
"Birgitte keeps telling me I need to learn to be more temperate. Well, you'll need to learn the same thing, for Egwene's sake. And she does need you, Gawyn. She may not realize it; she may be convinced she needs to hold up the world herself. She's wrong."
Amen.
My own belief remains that ToM was Egwenes summit of achievement, and crammed with instances of her manipulating everyone in sight then mentally patting herself on the back each time (as she did with the Wise Ones on the subject of "exchange students" while poisoning them against Rands plan to break the Seals.) She seems to have no idea the Seanchan attack on Tar Valon was merely a raid preliminary to full scale assault, despite the fact her Dreamed encounter with a Seanchan woman has yet to occu. Yet, assuming she manages to navigate that unexpected pitfall, plenty of others await her serene confidence in her own infallibility. It is not as if she seeks much counsel from surbordinates (which she seems to think includes everyone) that might alert her to the dangers she yet faces. Egwene does not "build bridges," she ties and pulls strings. She is interested in building "cooperation," but only cooperation on behalf of HER goals, usually without sharing any more of them than absolutely necessary to secure the "cooperation" (i.e. pliability) she requires. She is a recruiter, not a consensus builder. Consensus building demands the ability to consider multiple propositions, and more interaction with others than simply applying every carrot, stick and lever needed to secure their acquiesence.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed.
03/05/2012 03:52:14 PM
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Re: The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed.
03/05/2012 04:08:09 PM
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I think I like Callandor from TDR better..
03/05/2012 04:26:42 PM
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I really like it
03/05/2012 05:54:51 PM
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The sword grip is not akward or wrong
03/05/2012 06:20:54 PM
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well, for one, I didn't say it was "wrong" so don't jump down my throat.
04/05/2012 10:03:06 PM
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If you think that was jumping down your throat... seriously... *NM*
07/05/2012 01:51:45 PM
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when I initially read it, it came off that way. I apologize if I misinterpreted you. *NM*
09/05/2012 04:58:13 PM
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Its the sword thats not a sword (its a night light!)
04/05/2012 04:47:27 PM
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oh no fair enough! like i said, I just think it looks a little awkward.
04/05/2012 10:04:21 PM
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Well...
03/05/2012 06:09:51 PM
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I think it is EG and Nyn
03/05/2012 06:24:13 PM
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Pretty sure it's Mo and Nyn
03/05/2012 06:40:49 PM
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Yeah...
03/05/2012 07:55:32 PM
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Egwene is a distinct possibility...
03/05/2012 11:37:48 PM
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She is
04/05/2012 12:15:21 AM
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I don't know...
04/05/2012 12:25:53 AM
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Re: I don't know...
04/05/2012 02:47:02 AM
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"You expect me to wise up?" "No, Egwene, I expect you to DIE!"
11/05/2012 01:36:09 AM
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What books have you been reading?
11/05/2012 01:57:31 AM
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Egwene made many things "clear;" I dug up all the ToM quotes for a post near this time last year
11/05/2012 01:12:05 PM
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The other quotes you requested, as promised.
13/05/2012 03:29:41 AM
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You misinterpreting quotes is hardly worth requoting...
13/05/2012 11:36:21 AM
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Agreed
13/05/2012 03:39:12 PM
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Exactly...
13/05/2012 05:53:17 PM
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Never said she was evil, just wrong. Horribly and tragically wrong.
14/05/2012 02:34:27 AM
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Principle protagonists can still experience epic falls.
14/05/2012 02:21:42 AM
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For the most part, very little interpretation was required.
14/05/2012 01:58:26 AM
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Re: For the most part, very little interpretation was required.
14/05/2012 03:51:31 AM
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Re: I think it is EG and Nyn
03/05/2012 07:38:36 PM
- 2433 Views
I could be wrong, but I believe Rand used Calandor as a sword in the Stone.
03/05/2012 08:06:45 PM
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I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too
03/05/2012 09:05:58 PM
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Re: I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too
03/05/2012 11:28:42 PM
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Idea
04/05/2012 10:11:05 AM
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Re: Idea
04/05/2012 12:09:17 PM
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This would explain the hidden hand
04/05/2012 08:54:00 PM
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Re: I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too
04/05/2012 02:49:51 PM
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Re: I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too
04/05/2012 07:42:12 PM
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Re: I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too
07/05/2012 08:02:26 PM
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I actually found the champion/politician split between parallels very convincing.
11/05/2012 01:35:34 PM
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Re: I actually found the champion/politician split between parallels very convincing.
11/05/2012 04:06:50 PM
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Egwenes problem is her knack for seeing the error of her ways without ever LEARNING it.
13/05/2012 04:57:27 AM
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The Seanchan assassin...
13/05/2012 11:47:53 AM
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You do realize she drew her own (false but firm) conclusions based on a dearth of data. Again.
14/05/2012 02:08:26 AM
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Re: You do realize she drew her own (false but firm) conclusions based on a dearth of data. Again.
14/05/2012 04:08:11 AM
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Re: You do realize she drew her own (false but firm) conclusions based on a dearth of data. Again.
21/05/2012 01:59:15 AM
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looks a little 'naughty pirate novel' but is pretty fricken awesome! *NM*
03/05/2012 06:50:42 PM
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Re: The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed.
03/05/2012 07:25:37 PM
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I does not look like Nynaeve and Moiraine
03/05/2012 11:39:01 PM
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Nynaeve has cut her braid and has her hair shoulder length in TOM....
03/05/2012 11:44:50 PM
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Re: Nynaeve has cut her braid and has her hair shoulder length in TOM....
03/05/2012 11:51:02 PM
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nynaeve with no braid?.... are we sure its not egwene? or did no one tell him the hairstyles? *NM*
08/05/2012 06:48:49 PM
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Nyn cut her braid off. *NM*
08/05/2012 06:55:02 PM
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I thought it was burned off during her test for Aes Sedaihood. *NM*
08/05/2012 07:25:51 PM
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Right, my mistake. Then she cut her hair to make it straight again. *NM*
08/05/2012 08:54:33 PM
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Regarding the identities of the women on the back:
09/05/2012 08:52:47 PM
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What the hell is on the ground close to the bottom edge of the picture? *NM*
10/05/2012 05:55:07 AM
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It's Michael Whelan's signature. I looked it up and found it in a different book cover *NM*
11/05/2012 07:05:22 AM
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That looks pretty cool, better than most of the other WoT covers
26/06/2012 07:37:29 AM
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