Yup, my bad, sorry.


I will leave you to debate that with Cannoli, since it was his comment; I tend to take your view of it. All three of us in one sub-thread seems a recipe for disaster.


Right again; they carefully and deliberately stopped just short bringing an army into Andor, which would have been an act of war (guess I ought to do another re-read, perhaps two, at this point, before rejoining the WoTMB. )


My core point, that she protected Andors sovereignty along with its other interests (rather than damaging them, as Cannoli claimed,) remains valid.


It is quite comparable to a church, but one without an active deity who directly intervenes with creation. Neither spirituality nor churches require such a deity, only a deity itself. Randland has one in the Creator, and the disciplined sisterhood using and teaching the responsible use of the force derived from him, by which he created the world, is very like a church in many ways. They even have a minimalist catechism ("The Dark One was bound by The Creator at the moment of creation.") and at least two doctrines (that of rebirth and salvation, though the latter is curiously never defined.) They do not have missionaries because they do not need them; people running around using the One Power precludes skepticism, a non-interventionist deity largely precludes complex doctrinal teaching, and the only competing religion is the Dark Ones (who followers are executed on sight.)

Still and so, I did NOT say the White Tower is a church; I said it, along with the Whitecloaks, are the closest thing to a church in Randland. It is stripped of almost all doctrine apart from that of a Creator, rebirth, salvation and Tarmon Gaidon, but the spirituality remains very much intact, as we repeatedly see in the White Tower meditations designed to facilitate use of the mystical (and VERY spiritual) One Power. The One Power is not only derived from the Creator, but the mechanism of creation, both in the sense of "the act of creating" and "created things" (i.e. perpetually reborn people.) Within the Westlands, the White Tower is the only organization to have studied and chronicled Tel'aran'rhiod and entrance to it. The World of Dreams is the residence of the SOULS of dead Heroes, not their psyches.


No revealed religion?! The whole series is filled with various prophecies, most related to Tarmon Gaidon, and many not even restricted to the White Tower. It is deist rather than purely theist, but very definitely there (given Jordan was a Mason, which requires professed belief in SOME kind of Creator, anything else would be surprising.) If those prophecies were not revealed by the Creator, how WERE they revealed? Spice-fueled prescience?


Who said anything about power? Although, now that you bring it up, SOMETHING has kept the Dark One (mostly) bound since the moment of creation, just as SOMETHING must provide a champion to defeat and re-imprison him at Tarmon Gaidon. Like I said, it is deist, but it is also VERY Manichean, and certainly not atheist or even agnostic. There is very little organized religion, and I would not call the White Tower exactly the same as a church, but there is DEFINITELY religion, and the two groups most occupied with it (at least in Randland) are the Aes Sedai and Whitecloaks.


Um, I am pretty sure using the One POWER, a purely spiritual force derived from the Creator, qualifies as "ha[ving or claiming] to have any kind of spiritual power of any kind." It is kind of a bizarre debate; the White Power not only claims but demonstrates far more indisputable spiritual power than REAL churches. Likewise, "promoting and preserving unity against the Light" (I assume you meant "Shadow") qualifies as "preach[ing] the light" and "claiming to oppose the Shadow in the Creator's name or following his will."


Yes, and the Catholic Church makes no spiritual claims whatsoever, beside allegiance to Christ as humanitys divine and only Savior.


Yes, but in the case of the other nations it is not their raison d'etre; in the Towers case, it is. That is a tremendous difference, and the reason the other nations allow Tower initiates to meddle in their internal affairs as well as accept them as royal advisors. Queen Tenobia has no "Tairen Advisor," but she darned sure has an Aes Sedai one.


Wait, which one of us is arguing they are similar to a church?


International, but not supranational; somewhere between the Red Cross and the UN (Aes Sedai Healing ensures few nations will ever completely renounce relations with the them, even if Amadicia has and Tear has come close.)


They are political AND spiritual; the two are not mutually exclusive (they tend to be rather incestuous, actually.)


Again, you are the one DENYING they are like a church, remember?


I was unaware the Southern nations lack Aes Sedai advisors (though Mayene obviously has one) but the Aes Sedai advisors elsewhere are certainly at a senior level of government; being privy to and high in the monarchs counsel is almost the definition of "at a senior level of government." Until Rahvins Compulsion, the rest of the Westlands generally regarded Morgase as a strong and able monarch, which they certainly would not have done if she were remarkable for the degree of deference and influence she gave her Aes Sedai advisor.


They are an allied power with temporal status and very few goals shared by any other state. They are far closer to Vatican City than to Medieval Venice.

Again, not saying they are a church, only a spiritual organization that, along with the Whitecloacks is the closest thing to a church in the Westlands.