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"You expect me to wise up?" "No, Egwene, I expect you to DIE!" Joel Send a noteboard - 11/05/2012 01:36:09 AM
But I also think it can be Egwene because in many ways, Egwene is Rand's counterpart in the series. Her story and overall arc mirrors his


It doesn't mirror his whole storyarc, just one half of it. Egwene has mirrored Rand's political arc. Egwene has never mirrored Rand's champion arc. It's always been Nynaeve who mirrored that part, mostly through peripheral issues. It's Nynaeve and Rand who both left Emond's Field reluctantly and out of duty. What Rand went through as a sparker, Nynaeve has also gone through. As a wilder and blocked, she experienced in minor mode the rejection Rand experienced, and also some of the pressure of high hopes attached to his person.

She shared with Rand an early horror of what she was (learned this from Moiraine too, incidentally), and denied herself just like he did. Later on, the burden of a mission/duty layed on both their shoulders, Rand because he has to play the role of Dragon, and Nynaeve because she has to live up to being the Wisdom, and for both of them it's a variation of being forced to be the one who protects the others (for Rand the whole world, for Nynaeve her people), even at the expense of themselves.

It's been an important theme for both Nynaeve and Rand that they feared they are destroyers when one is a saviour and the other is a healer. Both had emotional problems. Nynaeve kept her emotions bottled up until she exploded in anger and lost control, forgetting her fear to channel. They had significant mirror scenes (ie: inverted), like the Moghedien accident when a previously escaped Forsaken balefired her boat and where Nynaeve in total state of despair to save the life of Lan reached to the only thing which could save him, and thus broke her block, whereas with Rand with got the dark counterpart when an escaped Forsaken trapped him and in total despair to save Min's life he reached to the only thing left to him, the TP, and he balefired the Forsaken (typical RJ mirror, one scene begins one way while the other ends that way, in reverse). They both shared a fear of their talent. Around the same time, each of them captured a Forsaken and forced the Forsaken to teach them.


And I could go on with both the ways in which Nynaeve parralels Rand or for instance how often Lan has been used in Nynaeve's storyline for a mirror effect, as he was the one parallelling Rand and Nyaneve offered the mirror or female complement, parallelling in turn Min, Elayne or Aviendha for that. Think for instance how Egwene handed down Rand to Elayne in a way quite reminescent of how Moiraine hand down Lan to Nynaeve.

The complementarity of Nynaeve and Rand has already come together for the Cleansing.

When Rand fell into darkness and despair and possession and paranoia about Min, Nynaeve's role as a healer of the those made sick by the spoiled food increased, and she had let Lan go, because that was someone who truly loved another had to do. In KOD that mirroring was already in place. Nynaeve had sent Lan away, Rand was letting Min stay close, which made him lose his hand.

When Egwene had no control whatsoever over Rand, it's Nynaeve she finally reined in.

I could go on a while, but I think it's enough to get the idea.

Meanwhile, Egwene has parallelled and mirrored Rand's political progression. This storyline has nearly ended now, Rand has already put in motion what should make Egwene the real political leader of the Light. It's LTT's political role Egwene has inherited. Rand understands he can't be ruler, general and champion all at once. He understood his real role is that of champion, putting the war and politics in other hands. Mat can be the general, put he has neither the skills nor the clout nor the time for politics. That role Rand played as King Dragon will fall on Egwene's lap. Not even Elayne can play it, only the Amyrlin has the clout to keep all the rulers together, and bring together the channelers.

and when it comes to OP skill, she is likely the foremost among the Light-side women. This being Nynaeve and Egwene could also fit with the fact that they were initially supposed to be one character that got split into two.

The reverse also works, you can say it has to be one over the other precisely because the character has been split, stripping the woman who's Rand complement as champion of any romantic connection to Rand and political role, and RJ - who said he's started by designing the ending first then worked its way to create a beginning - may very well have had someone else in mind for the second woman at Rand's side in the endgame even back then.

As for Egwene being too politically valuable... I don't think that will hold her back. She didn't hold herself back with Mesaana, and facing the DO is many orders of magnitude more significant than defeating a Foresaken.

Anyway, I think Egwene's thoughts of protecting herself and not being the center of action is a red flag that exactly the opposite will happen. I think she'll be a "Soldier Amyrlin", and be fighting at the front anyway. I really don't see her giving that up, in the end. I think she will argue that in the face of the DO's impending victory, no one can afford to stay locked safely in a Tower.


I strongly disagree with this. It was fitting that Amyrlin dealt herself with the Forsaken responsible for breaking the Tower, but RJ also used that to show Egwene still doesn't fully understand her own role and importance. She was on the eve of a crucial meeting with Rand, for which she's assembled this coalition and for which she thinks her Dreams are crucial. The alliance between female channelers rests totally on her shoulders, and though she doesn't know it yet, it's what she did with Logain against what any other Aes Sedai would have done and the fact he knows this all too well which may be the final key for the reunification of male and female Aes Sedai. She suspects also she's personally the key to a resolution with the Seanchan. And yet, Egwene once again put everything she has worked so hard for, everything she's gained, in the balance to go play the hero. The scenes made it all too obvious, she owed her life to Perrin, and then she nearly died a second time at Mesaana's hands. That wasn't a "great deed", it was the counterpart to Rand's folly of balefiring a whole palace full of people when the Pattern is at risk of unravelling to get rid of a single Forsaken. Egwene nearly unravelled everything the same way, leaving the WT leaderless and back into a political crisis to decide which woman for which Ajah was best suited to face the Dragon at Merrilor, while the WO and Windfinders go their own way, Logain would become very unlikely to trust any other Amyrlin, and the rulers suddenly lost the political leader who was bringing them together as a united front at Merrilor. All that because Egwene wanted to deal with Mesaana in her own way and herself. She made the same mistake before, when she took Bode's place and nearly unravelled everything she's accomplished with the rebellion. It's no more Egwene's place to play the action hero than it Elayne. She's better to remember the lesson this time. She should have stopped at what she did against the Seanchan, when that time she rose to be the woman the Tower needed at its head. That was her great moment as a "fighter", facing Mesaana herself was a mistake. The WT knows Egwene can fight, there's nothing she can gain now by fighting, and a lot to lose. Her, the Tower and the world. The stakes are too high. Only in TAR are Egwene's skills so unique she can't be replaced by someone more expandable. Egwene figthing as a soldier would be the same as Mat joining the frontline with the Band because he's damn fast and good with weapons, or Rand offering himself a sword fight with Demandred.

I think Egwene will have way too much to handle as the real political leader of the Light to even think about joining the battlefield as a mere soldier. She'll constantly have all the Ajahs reporting to her and the Hall. The White Tower will do far more than merely provide soldiers in TG. They have the healers, and those who will help move people and armies when needed. There will no doubt be delegates with the rulers, and sisters if not Egwene herself on the war councils. Through TG the WT will need their Amyrlin and Hall to remain where they belong and do their job.

I don't rule out Egwene will be involved in TAR fights, likely ones she won't choose this time, but I sure don't expect her to play the Soldier Amyrlin, who died on the field which created chaos and most likely is when the law preventing the Amyrlin from putting herself in direct danger without full approval of the Hall was passed.

There's also the aftermath of TG to think of. It's hardly a good time for people like Elayne and Egwene to go play the hero and get themselves killed for it. Rand has understood this, and stepped down as "ruler". He's done with his "you do what I say now, and once I'm dead you'll do whatever you want" attitude. There's plenty of examples in WOT history why Egwene should stay out of the battlefields, the most glaring one being how only Hawkwing's person held his Empire together. There's no alternate leader à la Latra Posae with an established authority who can step in if Egwene gets herself killed. That alternate leader is Egwene herself, so Rand can concentrate on his role as Champion. Rand is expandable as long as he defeats Shai'tan. Egwene soon won't be because she'll be central to holding everything together after TG. The world will face very difficult years post TG, the longer the cooperation and alliances for the LB can hold, the better Aviendha's future can be avoided. We know the alternative... the Seanchan reverting to their war of conquest and taking over rather then spending the next few years planning their return to the other continent, likely departing as allies of the Westlands.

That doesn't mean Egwene won't wish she'd be the one at SG or on the battlefields, but Rand has already all but handed her down the responsabilities to keep the world united behind him, and Egwene can't play both roles, no more than Elayne can rule Andor and be at the head of its armies at the same time. That's a recipe for collapse, a collapse the world cannot afford at this juncture, not during nor after TG.

I expect both Elayne and Egwene to wisen up about this.

Edit: sorry, got cut by the "Québec Spring", had to make sure the cat was in and didn't get eaten by one of those evil commie- anarchist students in the streets.

The second character who parallel (rather than mirrors, in this case) Rand's arc as champion has always been Moiraine, while it's always Siuan who played Egwene's role. It's so obvious... because RJ emphasized it heavily in NS. Both Rand and Moirane have their life path set before them by a prophecy about the same event: Rand's birth. Like Egwene and Rand were romantically involved as teenagers and went different ways as adults, Moiraine and Siuan were lovers than put an end to it. Like Rand now rejects his political role to devote himself to his mission, Moiraine fled from playing a political role that would have meant an end to her mission. Moiraine found Lan who swore his life to protect her, Rand has Nynaeve who did the same. Both Rand and Moiraine tried to control everything only to see control escape them. In the end, Moiraine understood she could play all roles at once and she couldn't be Rand's friend and guide, the arm of the White Tower at his side, and fulfill her own destiny. Like Rand accepts he might have to do, Moiraine accepted her true role and embraced death (to the world) and now rebirth, part of the way she could live and see the LB won. Rand's Cleansed Saidin, Moiraine was the first Aes Sedai to accept a male channeler had to live in 3000 years. Etc. Moiraine dedicated herself to the LB and the Dragon, Siuan had to sacrifice her desires for a similar role to be the one holding the Tower and the world together to face TG.. Moiraine had to let go, she couldn't be the Dragon in Rand's place, Siuan also had to let go, she coudn't be Egwene. Etc.

It's always been Moiraine as the parallel and Nynaeve mostly as a mirror.

Moiraine and Nynaeve also complement each other in regard to Rand. One see the dragon before the man, the other used to see the man before the Dragon, though going through TGS/TOM she started getting a more balanced view that Rand isn't only Rand and she can't see him only as Rand. The counterpart to that would be the returning Moiraine at last developping a personal rather than strictly "professional" relationship with Rand - a true frienship at last.

Towers of Midnight solidified my belief in a theory that had been growing in me for a while: The Jordan is out to Prove Something, or two somethings, with Egwene.

1) Thematically, that delegation and cooperation are vital to any world-changing/saving endeavor, and distrustful independence fatal, regardless of motive or allegiance. The series contains many examples of this; it typifies the Shadow. The notable exception is the early cooperation between Rahvin, Sammael, Lanfear, Graendal and (to a lesser extent) Asmodean, but backstabbing, particularly by Lanfear, epically annihilated all that potential; only Graendal and Lanfear survived the result (if we can call what happened to Lanfear "surviving.") Yet the best examples are, like Egwene, LIGHTFRIENDS.

Pedron Niall was murdered in the heart of his own stronghold by one of his own pawns. It never would have happened had he not been so inscrutably tight-lipped with the the other Lord Captains about his plans and goals. Had he not made a habit of manipulation and subterfuge, he would not have had anyone so easily deceived and manipulated on his personal staff, with the private access needed for the murder. Consequently, the rest of the Westlands remained completely ignorant the Seanchan had invaded Tarabon and Arad Doman until they took Amadicia and Altara. He might have alerted them even before then had he not discounted his Taraboner spies first reports for no more reason than his assurance he knew the reality of the situation better than his hand-picked veteran spy on the scene. Instead, well.... ;)

The other classic Lightsider example is Elaida, who stood at a similarly rarified pinnacle of power only to be destroyed by the same combination of manipulating subordinates and associates until they distrusted each other, but her more than anyone, and dismissing any and every opinion and belief save her own. Not only did that allow the Black Ajah to run the White Tower under her very nose, with everyone ignoring the tell tales aberrations and inconsistencies as consistent with the close-mouthed erratic Amyrlin, it allowed the Seanchan to attack the Tower itself simply because Elaida had predecided Egwenes warnings (and everyone elses) were irrelevant and erroneous since she did not originate them. Witness the result: The White Tower literally in tatters; the erstwhile Amyrlin a new damane.

Then, of course, there is Siuan, a generally sympathetic character, who was captured in her own study, deposed, stilled ans slated for execution all because the Hall of the Tower (rightly) suspected her opaque inexplicable behavior indicated conspiracy. Once again, making intrigue and subterfuge the norm allowed Alviarin to plot the Black Ajahs takeover under her very nose, because all the red flags that should have sounded the alarm were so typical of the Towers inexplicable operations no one thought them noteworthy.

Note that all these people were not only adamantly committed to the Light, but also among the strongest, most experienced and most capable characters in the series. They were nonetheless completely undone by their own arrogance, contempt and mistrust. Egwene increasingly displays all the same habits characteristic of the "if you want it done right, do it yourself" mentality so lethal to leaders in the Wheel of Time. Rather than having some "anognorisis epiphany" that exposes her foolishness to her, the trait is more and more exacerbated in her: Trust no one, tell no one, do everything yourself, because the world depends on your every task, and everyone else is too weak, incompetent, untrustworthy and/or lazy for such great responsibilities.

Being captured by the Usurper Tower SHOULD have driven that home to Egwene—but clearly did not, hence she is calling everyone who can hold a spear to "convince" the Dragon Reborn not to enact a plan devised by no lesser authority on the Seals than their maker. Nearly everyone to whom she has personally stated this, even senior Tower members with no loyalty to Rand, has voiced objections, only to be browbeaten into submission by the domineering leader who brooks no dissent. Egwene is no less right than Pedron Niall or Elaida, Rand no more knowledgable than the insane Whitecloack spy rambling about the Seanchan in Tarabon or the upstart Tower novice babbling about their attack on Tar Valon. :rolleyes:

It all seems to be coming together quite nicely—unless you are Egwene, in which case you should increase your life insurance.... ;)

2) Narratively, this may be a case of Jordan wanting to "prove" he is not above killing off a major protagonist (I started to say, "popular," but do not think Egwene has qualified as that for some time.) He has certainly foreshadowed it enough, with her discovery during her Tower testing that a circle can turn channelers to the Shadow, and her Dream of Gawyn either taking or saving her life. Conventional wisdom said the latters resolution hinged on the balance between his love for her and his mother, but during her testing we also saw Rand begging his then-girlfriend to kill him so he could not be turned; Gawyn may eventually perform a similar service for HER. The problem with delivering homilies by dooming characters like Niall, Elaida, even Siuan, is that they are not prominent enough for the audience to become deeply invested in them; major characters like Egwene drive the point home much better, if only because they prompt fans to demand "WHY...?!" until they realize the answer.

Additionally, there is the matter of Logain and Mins vision of his future greatness, combined with the emergence of the Black Tower along with other large channeling groups like the Kin, Wise Ones and Windfinders. If channeling survives the Third Age (not a given,) its institutions must inevitably undergo fundamental restructuring and integration to which Egwene seems grossly inadequate. Logain would be a far better Amyrlin to guide a "Gray Tower" where Ashaman bond Aes Sedai (and vice versa,) having bonded two Aes Sedai himself. He certainly would not harbor any reservations about whether saidin had "really" been Cleansed, and his background as a minor noble far better suits him to direct White Tower diplomacy than does that of a back country tavern keepers daughter.

Obviously this is somewhat of a long shot; there is also still the matter of Egwene Dreaming about her disgusted cooperation with a Seanchan woman (on the other hand, it should be clear from the above, if it was not already, that Egwene is not exactly all about cooperation at this point, even if she did not view the Seanchan as The Sum of All Evil.) Something in my gut just tells me Egwene will not be alive at the end of the final volume, and I expect her re-enactment of Latra Posaes role in the Strike to be a key reason why.
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The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed. - 03/05/2012 03:52:14 PM 4934 Views
It's pretty damn cool. - 03/05/2012 03:59:36 PM 2580 Views
Re: The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed. - 03/05/2012 04:08:09 PM 2715 Views
Re: The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed. - 03/05/2012 04:17:19 PM 2682 Views
the pit of doom is hot - 12/06/2012 01:57:18 AM 2178 Views
I think I like Callandor from TDR better.. - 03/05/2012 04:26:42 PM 2730 Views
yes. I sincerely doubt she has that kind of competency - 03/05/2012 05:52:22 PM 2600 Views
Re: I think I like Callandor from TDR better.. - 04/05/2012 11:10:49 AM 2450 Views
Heh - Cannoli-baiting *NM* - 04/05/2012 04:46:51 PM 1952 Views
*NM* - 05/05/2012 09:04:15 PM 1872 Views
Re: The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed. - 03/05/2012 05:06:19 PM 2353 Views
I really like it - 03/05/2012 05:54:51 PM 2627 Views
The sword grip is not akward or wrong - 03/05/2012 06:20:54 PM 2368 Views
something like this? - 03/05/2012 06:46:59 PM 2938 Views
Its the sword thats not a sword (its a night light!) - 04/05/2012 04:47:27 PM 2370 Views
oh no fair enough! like i said, I just think it looks a little awkward. - 04/05/2012 10:04:21 PM 2314 Views
Me, too! - 12/05/2012 01:18:06 AM 2425 Views
Well... - 03/05/2012 06:09:51 PM 2730 Views
I think it is EG and Nyn - 03/05/2012 06:24:13 PM 2415 Views
Pretty sure it's Mo and Nyn - 03/05/2012 06:40:49 PM 2466 Views
Yeah... - 03/05/2012 07:55:32 PM 2375 Views
when did Nynaeve cut her hair? - 08/05/2012 07:33:04 PM 3939 Views
It was burned off during her testing for the shawl. - 12/06/2012 02:53:43 AM 3118 Views
Egwene is a distinct possibility... - 03/05/2012 11:37:48 PM 2522 Views
She is - 04/05/2012 12:15:21 AM 2609 Views
I don't know... - 04/05/2012 12:25:53 AM 2345 Views
Re: I don't know... - 04/05/2012 02:47:02 AM 2510 Views
I'm not disagreeing with most of that... - 08/05/2012 02:58:53 AM 2214 Views
"You expect me to wise up?" "No, Egwene, I expect you to DIE!" - 11/05/2012 01:36:09 AM 2441 Views
What books have you been reading? - 11/05/2012 01:57:31 AM 2464 Views
I agree - 11/05/2012 02:51:38 PM 2553 Views
The other quotes you requested, as promised. - 13/05/2012 03:29:41 AM 2529 Views
You misinterpreting quotes is hardly worth requoting... - 13/05/2012 11:36:21 AM 2234 Views
Agreed - 13/05/2012 03:39:12 PM 2335 Views
Exactly... - 13/05/2012 05:53:17 PM 2300 Views
Never said she was evil, just wrong. Horribly and tragically wrong. - 14/05/2012 02:34:27 AM 2355 Views
- 14/05/2012 04:23:21 AM 2262 Views
Re- - 21/05/2012 02:43:49 AM 2730 Views
Principle protagonists can still experience epic falls. - 14/05/2012 02:21:42 AM 2324 Views
Then she wouldn't be a "protagonist" - 14/05/2012 04:38:34 AM 2287 Views
Again, I never said she is or will become evil. - 21/05/2012 03:03:32 AM 2437 Views
Re: Principle protagonists can still experience epic falls. - 14/05/2012 08:32:50 AM 2393 Views
Re: Principle protagonists can still experience epic falls. - 21/05/2012 03:28:48 AM 2229 Views
For the most part, very little interpretation was required. - 14/05/2012 01:58:26 AM 2450 Views
Re: For the most part, very little interpretation was required. - 14/05/2012 03:51:31 AM 2632 Views
Re: For the most part, very little interpretation was required. - 14/05/2012 06:41:32 AM 2393 Views
Yeah... - 14/05/2012 07:47:16 AM 2398 Views
Re: Yeah... - 14/05/2012 04:40:49 PM 2457 Views
Re: For the most part, very little interpretation was required. - 21/05/2012 06:21:48 AM 2370 Views
Look at their foreheads - 16/05/2012 08:38:51 AM 2462 Views
Re: I think it is EG and Nyn - 03/05/2012 07:38:36 PM 2419 Views
I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too - 03/05/2012 09:05:58 PM 2266 Views
Re: I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too - 03/05/2012 11:28:42 PM 2403 Views
Idea - 04/05/2012 10:11:05 AM 2396 Views
Re: Idea - 04/05/2012 12:09:17 PM 2380 Views
Or.... - 04/05/2012 12:19:16 PM 2262 Views
This would explain the hidden hand - 04/05/2012 08:54:00 PM 2412 Views
That's a good point. - 04/05/2012 08:59:41 PM 2537 Views
Nah... - 07/05/2012 01:56:13 PM 2470 Views
Can you draw a blade - 08/05/2012 06:00:28 AM 2395 Views
It depens on the construction of the scabbard - 10/05/2012 01:36:30 PM 2313 Views
Re: I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too - 04/05/2012 02:49:51 PM 1475 Views
Re: I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too - 04/05/2012 07:42:12 PM 2502 Views
Re: I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too - 07/05/2012 08:02:26 PM 2323 Views
Re: I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too - 07/05/2012 09:32:45 PM 2535 Views
Thanks! *NM* - 13/05/2012 10:56:06 AM 2295 Views
Re: The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed. - 03/05/2012 07:25:37 PM 2274 Views
Re: The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed. - 03/05/2012 07:36:09 PM 2389 Views
It's his left hand Rand lost *NM* - 03/05/2012 08:00:01 PM 1892 Views
Thanks for the imput! *NM* - 03/05/2012 08:24:59 PM 2265 Views
I does not look like Nynaeve and Moiraine - 03/05/2012 11:39:01 PM 2345 Views
Nynaeve has cut her braid and has her hair shoulder length in TOM.... - 03/05/2012 11:44:50 PM 2487 Views
Re: Nynaeve has cut her braid and has her hair shoulder length in TOM.... - 03/05/2012 11:51:02 PM 3328 Views
Am I the only one who sees the red dot in her forehead? *NM* - 09/05/2012 08:36:53 PM 1927 Views
looks *$%$%*@ great *NM* - 04/05/2012 02:47:00 AM 2004 Views
i quite like it! as far as the women go... - 04/05/2012 06:38:10 PM 2476 Views
No Maidens of the Spear - 05/05/2012 05:09:27 PM 2471 Views
Re: No Maidens of the Spear - 07/05/2012 02:02:36 PM 2569 Views
nynaeve with no braid?.... are we sure its not egwene? or did no one tell him the hairstyles? *NM* - 08/05/2012 06:48:49 PM 1818 Views
Nyn cut her braid off. *NM* - 08/05/2012 06:55:02 PM 2052 Views
I thought it was burned off during her test for Aes Sedaihood. *NM* - 08/05/2012 07:25:51 PM 895 Views
I don't remember this at all *NM* - 08/05/2012 07:51:04 PM 2041 Views
Regarding the identities of the women on the back: - 09/05/2012 08:52:47 PM 2576 Views
What the hell is on the ground close to the bottom edge of the picture? *NM* - 10/05/2012 05:55:07 AM 1981 Views
A misplaced logo? *NM* - 10/05/2012 08:24:52 AM 1920 Views
Possibly one of the Seals? - 11/05/2012 01:42:13 AM 2386 Views
agreed - 10/05/2012 07:16:39 AM 2464 Views
Partially concur - 10/05/2012 01:17:31 PM 2270 Views
She's in the Pit of F*ing Doom. Ben Stein would be excited *NM* - 12/05/2012 04:22:44 AM 870 Views
i agree with the big about how Moiraine should be depicted - 12/05/2012 11:04:53 PM 1315 Views
you can see a second weapon in Rand's belt too - 13/05/2012 08:51:34 PM 1263 Views
That looks pretty cool, better than most of the other WoT covers - 26/06/2012 07:37:29 AM 1092 Views

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