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Re: I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too Sidious Send a noteboard - 07/05/2012 08:02:26 PM

Can it? It is his own energy, his own essence.

I have a big problem imagining that you can do anything to the DO with the True Power that he won't be able to undo, deflect or even simply cut you off.

I also have a problem with the idea that you could place a patch on the Bore using Shai'tan's own essence. What would you place between him and that patch, so that he can't touch it and undo it? If something has to go in between, we're back to square one: what can it be that won't touch Shai'tan directly with the OP?


My theory is that the previous patch failed because it didn't use both halves of the OP. It succeeded, but we can see now that it was more like a lid and less like a proper seal where the Pattern appears continuous and the DO can barely be sensed. We also know that saidar would also have been tainted if the women had taken part. Therefore one of my theories is that Rand will use saidin/saidar to make a perfect patch and his ta'veren effect will make it continuous with the Pattern. He will then defend himself with a TP barrier drawn through Callandor (I believe the flaw allows the TP to be magnified too). Normally the taint would occur again, or some other catastrophic effect, but in this case, it will be deflected long enough for the prison to seal. The three become one in that moment. The DO will not be able to cut Rand off from the TP because he doesn't realize that Rand can draw it through Moridin. Moridin knows, but not the DO. The DO thinks that its merely Moridin drawing and he would never suspect something amiss there. Anyone its only one of my theories, so I don't really mind if it doesn't happen like that at all.

This is a bit lame and too Gollum-esque, and it sounds way too much like a way to enlarge the Bore even more...

One possibility is that Fain gets into a struggle with SH and this distracts the DO. I think that SH truly is the DO's hand... a direct appendage of his essence. The DO will attempt to engage Rand and suddenly Fain will go for his hand ('al'Thor is mine!' etc) causing the DO to burn his hand in a way. This will be the distraction Rand needs.

Some have suggested that the EOTW was mean to provide channelers with a "closed loop" of the One Power. Shai'tan would strike back, but it couldn't taint the True Source, just the well. We don't know if using a well really isolate you enough from the True Source itself. Then, there was more than the counterstrike that seemed flawed in LTT's plan. The patch he made wasn't perfect. Shai'tan was still able to touch the seals. Doing it using a mega-well (it shouldn't be a problem to refill the Eye of the World now if it's what is needed. LTT would no doubt know how. Perhaps Callandor is just used so Rand can empty and use the OP from the Well much faster than he did in EOTW) which Shai'tan would taint during the sealing might achieve the same. (Crazy idea: what if you used Fain to destroy any part of the TP/taint/or Shai'tan that are touching the seals?)

It will be nice if the Eye makes an appearance in the last book. It might be a good idea, but I wonder where they would make it and how they would prevent other channelers from drawing on it (Taim would certainly love to get his hands on it). I think we're both in agreement that Fain has to antagonize the TP in some way. I don't think Fain will merely fight Cyndane and die, and kill her too for instance... I think he's got a prominent role to play.

But more (and aside from that) I'm quite convinced it was an accident, something Moridin had no idea would happen in SL. I think Moridin's control of the True Power was overode by Shai'tan in that episode. Moridin wove balefire. By accident it came into contact with Rand's OP stream, and Shai'tan in that blink seized the opportunity and made the TP going through Moridin piggy-back on the OP balefire stream and bonded the souls of Rand and Moridin. RJ always said that OP/TP interactions can have unpredictable effects. I suspect Shai'tan can take direct control at any time of the True Power he allows anyone to use, that Shai'tan's will is much greater than any human's and he can force the TP to alter its behavior and change what you meant to be doing. However, if interactions with the OP are unpredictable, perhaps Shai'tan got extremely lucky to accomplish a bonding, or earlier, to taint saidin, in the sense that he may have had no garantee he would succeed and not have another result altogether. But that's why I tend to think that attempting to use the TP against Shai'tan isn't a possibility, unless perhaps your goal is to trick Shai'tan into taking control, for some obscure reason that this would provide a window of opportunity to do something detrimental to him with something else.

I personally think that the taint was merely a backblast that was meant to instantly destroy the Companions. It probably would have, if it didn't somehow bond to saidin and taint it. The DO was probably as surprised as anyone, and probably would have been overjoyed if he hadn't been so enraged about being sealed away again. However, I've never said that Rand must use the TP against Shai'tan...he must merely shield himself with it when the DO goes for him. That effect will be predictable assuming he can access enough of the TP to directly challenge an assault by the DO. He may need only moments while the seal sets. I have two other theories surrounding the Moridin bond...

1. Rand will be harmed by the bond. SH will discover that the bond allows him to shield Rand from the True Source much like he can cut the Forsaken off. He will take Callandor. However, he will not be aware that the two women are in a link with Rand and they will destroy him together.

2. Rand will benefit from the bond. He can somehow use the bond to perform some act that will normally get him destroyed, but Moridin will end up taking the brunt of it. This could even involve the new 'taint' circling right through Rand and going into Moridin, killing him or making him insane, but leaving saidin and saidar untouched.

But perhaps it's leading somewhere like this. That may be why Rand has to shed his blood tainted by SL on the rocks before striking.

It's also possible that Rand's body ends up being the battlefield between Fain and the TP. They will sense the opposite evil in his wounds and will strike at him simultaneously. On touching him the battle will be fought there, destroying both of them and Rand. Alivia will help transfer Rand into Moridin somehow. This all seems rather farfetched but I'm expecting a healthy dose of metaphysics for the LB.

The other big problem is that Jordan said it's impossible for humans to touch the True Power anywhere near the Pit of Doom, that you'd be fried instantly. If it's because it's too strong there, that's a huge problem, but Jordan rather seemed to hint it's about the DO killing you instantly if you try to use the TP or OP near him. His control over SH may be such he's excluded from this rule, but I think we can rule out any of the Forsaken being present in the Pit, or at least that they will be able to take any OP/TP action during the Pit scenes.

The key, I think, it to use Moridin to draw it and make him take the punishment for it,

I wonder also about the purpose of Aviendha's talent. It's cute and all, but it sounds like a plot device.

I really can't decide if her Talent has a real use or if its merely to put her on an equal footing with her peers. Egwene, Nynaeve and Elayne have Talents, its time she had one too. The dagger is interesting though.


Moridin is the most likely, perhaps Cyndane. I'm not convinced he will face any of the others himself.

I get the feeling LTT will make sure he frustrates Demandred of any face-off between them. That sounds like a good psychological strategy to force Demandred into mistakes and stray more and more from his plans because all he tries to force Rand to give him their match fails to work, and Rand lets the likes of Mat, Logain, the other generals deal with him. Somehow, I think Demandred will fall into one of Mat's traps in the end.


I agree with this. It will be totally anti-thematic for Demandred to get a face-off with Rand, and people who actually think that Demandred will kill Rand are in for a horrible shock. Lews Therin has no time for Demandred and we can all see that Rand is possibly now a match for all the Forsaken at the same time now. He's in a different league. My theory is that Mat will kill him, but I wouldn't put it past RJ to have him taken out by a stray arrow or something.

Nynaeve may be on a collision course with Graendal, if Graendal's role isn't done. I'm not quite convinced she'll be back as one of Moridin's pets. She did get her "ironical end" already by becoming SH's pet, perhaps Jordan intended to leave it at that. I'm convinced Brandon already increased her role by putting her in charge of the plot surrounding Perrin because of the book split, that Jordan rather intended Graendal to meet her punishement after she failed completely with Rand. I think we were not supposed to learn for now which of Cyndane or Moghedien was dealing with Perrin for Moridin. That worked when Perrin's storyline was in a "support role" while Egwene's and Rand's were taking the forefront, but to turn Perrin's story into a central storyline in a book, Brandon needed some more tangible foe, and he picked Graendal as it let him give her the same fate RJ intended.

I'm not sure how Graendal will turn out in the next book. We know she isn't dead - SH said she'd remember his treatment of her. She may merely be traumatized by SH's attentions much like Mesaana was, but she seemed to recover to some degree. I don't think she was mindtrapped, but I do think she was tortured and raped.

We'll learn it's Lanfear who drove Masema insane later on, I think.

My pet theory is Demandred. He made Rand into a mockery where everyone bowed down to him under pain of death.

My feeling is that we'll have to make do with Lanfear, Moghedien, Demandred and Moridin for the LB. Moridin is our POV near Shai'tan/close to his plans. Demandred will be the mastermind of the War. Cyndane will be used to make this personal. Moghedien could well have a support role for the most part.

Moghedien may try her luck with Nynaeve again - she holds grudges.

If it requires much dexterity. I have long held the view that the endgame can't possibly center on OP skills. It's not that kind of series. Not saying it won't involve a crucial OP deed in the middle, but it will have to be about a far more personal achievement. Just like the Cleansing was about putting aside fears and prejudices. It was about Nynaeve making a leap of faith to trust Rand, it was about Rand deciding to be totally defenseless and his faith in letting Cadsuane organize the defense. It was about team work. The big OP deed was a side-show to all of that, Jordan was so succint in his explanation of what was happening that tons of readers had to wait for his elaborate vulgarization of what went on, at a Q&A, to fully understand the OP stuff in those scenes.

I think the fact that Rand is such a powerul ta'veren and also some sort of personified form of Creation is infinitely more important than the weave he will use.

And yes, it may well involve something other than the OP in the end. That sounds anticlimatic, but perhaps the LB is so full of huge OP deeds that not having a huge OP deed to close the Bore won't feel like a let down at all.

I'm sure we'll see so many OP deeds will be well sated before the end ;)

Regarding other issues..

I wonder if the FS can even appear before Rand without going blind and trying to kill themselves. They are darkfriends, unless the DO protects them with their vows and oaths etc.

I'm also wondering how Moridin will approach Rand. He can't just kill him. We know that he felt the pain of Rand losing his hand. We also don't know if Rand suffers the same if Moridin dies, and I suspect he does. It will be interesting to see how they kill one another without killing themselves. Rand would sacrifice himself, but I doubt Moridin would. Perhaps Fain's purpose is to dissolve the bond. He may cut Rand with the dagger and it tracks along the bond and kills Moridin and frees Rand.

I'd also like to hear your thoughts on Rand and his bond to Alanna and the role it may play.
Wheel of Time board admin
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The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed. - 03/05/2012 03:52:14 PM 4947 Views
It's pretty damn cool. - 03/05/2012 03:59:36 PM 2592 Views
Re: The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed. - 03/05/2012 04:08:09 PM 2723 Views
Re: The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed. - 03/05/2012 04:17:19 PM 2689 Views
the pit of doom is hot - 12/06/2012 01:57:18 AM 2188 Views
I think I like Callandor from TDR better.. - 03/05/2012 04:26:42 PM 2742 Views
yes. I sincerely doubt she has that kind of competency - 03/05/2012 05:52:22 PM 2610 Views
Re: I think I like Callandor from TDR better.. - 04/05/2012 11:10:49 AM 2460 Views
Heh - Cannoli-baiting *NM* - 04/05/2012 04:46:51 PM 1958 Views
*NM* - 05/05/2012 09:04:15 PM 1877 Views
Re: The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed. - 03/05/2012 05:06:19 PM 2363 Views
I really like it - 03/05/2012 05:54:51 PM 2639 Views
The sword grip is not akward or wrong - 03/05/2012 06:20:54 PM 2378 Views
something like this? - 03/05/2012 06:46:59 PM 2951 Views
Its the sword thats not a sword (its a night light!) - 04/05/2012 04:47:27 PM 2383 Views
oh no fair enough! like i said, I just think it looks a little awkward. - 04/05/2012 10:04:21 PM 2325 Views
Me, too! - 12/05/2012 01:18:06 AM 2434 Views
Well... - 03/05/2012 06:09:51 PM 2740 Views
I think it is EG and Nyn - 03/05/2012 06:24:13 PM 2429 Views
Pretty sure it's Mo and Nyn - 03/05/2012 06:40:49 PM 2477 Views
Yeah... - 03/05/2012 07:55:32 PM 2390 Views
when did Nynaeve cut her hair? - 08/05/2012 07:33:04 PM 3950 Views
It was burned off during her testing for the shawl. - 12/06/2012 02:53:43 AM 3127 Views
Egwene is a distinct possibility... - 03/05/2012 11:37:48 PM 2528 Views
She is - 04/05/2012 12:15:21 AM 2619 Views
I don't know... - 04/05/2012 12:25:53 AM 2353 Views
Re: I don't know... - 04/05/2012 02:47:02 AM 2526 Views
I'm not disagreeing with most of that... - 08/05/2012 02:58:53 AM 2225 Views
"You expect me to wise up?" "No, Egwene, I expect you to DIE!" - 11/05/2012 01:36:09 AM 2450 Views
What books have you been reading? - 11/05/2012 01:57:31 AM 2478 Views
I agree - 11/05/2012 02:51:38 PM 2575 Views
The other quotes you requested, as promised. - 13/05/2012 03:29:41 AM 2551 Views
You misinterpreting quotes is hardly worth requoting... - 13/05/2012 11:36:21 AM 2240 Views
Agreed - 13/05/2012 03:39:12 PM 2347 Views
Exactly... - 13/05/2012 05:53:17 PM 2306 Views
Never said she was evil, just wrong. Horribly and tragically wrong. - 14/05/2012 02:34:27 AM 2365 Views
- 14/05/2012 04:23:21 AM 2268 Views
Re- - 21/05/2012 02:43:49 AM 2739 Views
Principle protagonists can still experience epic falls. - 14/05/2012 02:21:42 AM 2342 Views
Then she wouldn't be a "protagonist" - 14/05/2012 04:38:34 AM 2296 Views
Again, I never said she is or will become evil. - 21/05/2012 03:03:32 AM 2455 Views
Re: Principle protagonists can still experience epic falls. - 14/05/2012 08:32:50 AM 2402 Views
Re: Principle protagonists can still experience epic falls. - 21/05/2012 03:28:48 AM 2238 Views
For the most part, very little interpretation was required. - 14/05/2012 01:58:26 AM 2462 Views
Re: For the most part, very little interpretation was required. - 14/05/2012 03:51:31 AM 2641 Views
Re: For the most part, very little interpretation was required. - 14/05/2012 06:41:32 AM 2406 Views
Yeah... - 14/05/2012 07:47:16 AM 2420 Views
Re: Yeah... - 14/05/2012 04:40:49 PM 2472 Views
Re: For the most part, very little interpretation was required. - 21/05/2012 06:21:48 AM 2382 Views
Look at their foreheads - 16/05/2012 08:38:51 AM 2474 Views
Re: I think it is EG and Nyn - 03/05/2012 07:38:36 PM 2433 Views
I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too - 03/05/2012 09:05:58 PM 2275 Views
Re: I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too - 03/05/2012 11:28:42 PM 2419 Views
Idea - 04/05/2012 10:11:05 AM 2406 Views
Re: Idea - 04/05/2012 12:09:17 PM 2389 Views
Or.... - 04/05/2012 12:19:16 PM 2272 Views
This would explain the hidden hand - 04/05/2012 08:54:00 PM 2423 Views
That's a good point. - 04/05/2012 08:59:41 PM 2550 Views
Nah... - 07/05/2012 01:56:13 PM 2479 Views
Can you draw a blade - 08/05/2012 06:00:28 AM 2404 Views
It depens on the construction of the scabbard - 10/05/2012 01:36:30 PM 2326 Views
Re: I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too - 04/05/2012 02:49:51 PM 1489 Views
Re: I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too - 04/05/2012 07:42:12 PM 2516 Views
Re: I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too - 07/05/2012 08:02:26 PM 2337 Views
Re: I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too - 07/05/2012 09:32:45 PM 2551 Views
Thanks! *NM* - 13/05/2012 10:56:06 AM 2304 Views
Re: The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed. - 03/05/2012 07:25:37 PM 2282 Views
Re: The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed. - 03/05/2012 07:36:09 PM 2403 Views
It's his left hand Rand lost *NM* - 03/05/2012 08:00:01 PM 1900 Views
Thanks for the imput! *NM* - 03/05/2012 08:24:59 PM 2269 Views
I does not look like Nynaeve and Moiraine - 03/05/2012 11:39:01 PM 2358 Views
Nynaeve has cut her braid and has her hair shoulder length in TOM.... - 03/05/2012 11:44:50 PM 2497 Views
Re: Nynaeve has cut her braid and has her hair shoulder length in TOM.... - 03/05/2012 11:51:02 PM 3336 Views
Am I the only one who sees the red dot in her forehead? *NM* - 09/05/2012 08:36:53 PM 1932 Views
looks *$%$%*@ great *NM* - 04/05/2012 02:47:00 AM 2011 Views
i quite like it! as far as the women go... - 04/05/2012 06:38:10 PM 2490 Views
No Maidens of the Spear - 05/05/2012 05:09:27 PM 2481 Views
Re: No Maidens of the Spear - 07/05/2012 02:02:36 PM 2578 Views
nynaeve with no braid?.... are we sure its not egwene? or did no one tell him the hairstyles? *NM* - 08/05/2012 06:48:49 PM 1821 Views
Nyn cut her braid off. *NM* - 08/05/2012 06:55:02 PM 2056 Views
I thought it was burned off during her test for Aes Sedaihood. *NM* - 08/05/2012 07:25:51 PM 907 Views
I don't remember this at all *NM* - 08/05/2012 07:51:04 PM 2047 Views
Regarding the identities of the women on the back: - 09/05/2012 08:52:47 PM 2585 Views
What the hell is on the ground close to the bottom edge of the picture? *NM* - 10/05/2012 05:55:07 AM 1985 Views
A misplaced logo? *NM* - 10/05/2012 08:24:52 AM 1923 Views
Possibly one of the Seals? - 11/05/2012 01:42:13 AM 2395 Views
agreed - 10/05/2012 07:16:39 AM 2473 Views
Partially concur - 10/05/2012 01:17:31 PM 2279 Views
She's in the Pit of F*ing Doom. Ben Stein would be excited *NM* - 12/05/2012 04:22:44 AM 875 Views
i agree with the big about how Moiraine should be depicted - 12/05/2012 11:04:53 PM 1321 Views
you can see a second weapon in Rand's belt too - 13/05/2012 08:51:34 PM 1271 Views
That looks pretty cool, better than most of the other WoT covers - 26/06/2012 07:37:29 AM 1100 Views

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