Of course, but the point of my example was...
Fanatic-Templar Send a noteboard - 17/04/2012 06:08:09 PM
... that without some manner of standards, anything can be justified 'indirectly'. For example, you say that Rand forcing peace between the Seanchan and the rest of the world, leading to the Aiel being bored, leading to the Aiel waging a war against the Seanchan they cannot win, leading to their destruction as a people after thousands of years, is sufficient justification for attributing the destruction of the Aiel to Rand.
I say it is not. These are not Prophecies of things that will happen, they are specifically prophecies about what Rand will do, and I require a more direct connection between Rand's actions and the end result.
It also sort of misses the point of the prophecy. In Aviendha's vision, the Aiel cause their own destruction because they were bored. They are a people for whom survival has always been a struggle and war has always been a fact of life. Now they are united, no longer fighting with other clans, and living in peace on lands that are, to them, excessively abundant. The problems of Aviendha's vision are thus these:
1- The Aiel have no purpose beyond fighting.
2- The Aiel are too numerous.
That second problem is the important one here. It is actually the inverse of the Rhuidean prophecy, which states that Rand will destroy the Aiel except for a remnant of a remnant which he shall save. Aviendha's vision contains instead a future where the Aiel destroy themselves because Rand saved more than a remnant.
I say it is not. These are not Prophecies of things that will happen, they are specifically prophecies about what Rand will do, and I require a more direct connection between Rand's actions and the end result.
It also sort of misses the point of the prophecy. In Aviendha's vision, the Aiel cause their own destruction because they were bored. They are a people for whom survival has always been a struggle and war has always been a fact of life. Now they are united, no longer fighting with other clans, and living in peace on lands that are, to them, excessively abundant. The problems of Aviendha's vision are thus these:
1- The Aiel have no purpose beyond fighting.
2- The Aiel are too numerous.
That second problem is the important one here. It is actually the inverse of the Rhuidean prophecy, which states that Rand will destroy the Aiel except for a remnant of a remnant which he shall save. Aviendha's vision contains instead a future where the Aiel destroy themselves because Rand saved more than a remnant.
The first rule of being a ninja is "do no harm". Unless you intend to do harm, then do lots of harm.
~Master Splinter
Victorious in Bergioyn's legendary 'Reverse Mafia'. *MySmiley*
~Master Splinter
Victorious in Bergioyn's legendary 'Reverse Mafia'. *MySmiley*
Aviendha, the columns, and the Seanchan
03/04/2012 04:29:31 PM
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The entire point, I believe, is to give Avienda the opportunity to change that future
03/04/2012 05:13:48 PM
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As far as I understand it, that future is impossible anyway.
03/04/2012 07:30:52 PM
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Depends on how one defines Aiel
04/04/2012 04:11:11 AM
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There are more than there were before.
04/04/2012 07:03:27 AM
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But when the prophesy was made there many followers
04/04/2012 10:10:54 AM
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The Tuatha'an are not Aiel.
04/04/2012 06:28:47 PM
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Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel.
05/04/2012 01:41:23 AM
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Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel.
05/04/2012 07:39:04 AM
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Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel.
05/04/2012 02:14:37 PM
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Yes, I was thinking of the Aiel's suicidal traditions as well.
05/04/2012 06:24:56 PM
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Re: Yes, I was thinking of the Aiel's suicidal traditions as well.
06/04/2012 12:20:31 AM
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Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel.
06/04/2012 10:38:24 PM
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Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel.
07/04/2012 06:27:27 AM
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Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel.
07/04/2012 07:23:03 PM
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So what you're saying...
07/04/2012 10:07:59 PM
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What I am saying is that it's not a "pure bloodline" that makes one an Aiel
08/04/2012 12:16:10 AM
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I never said it was.
08/04/2012 12:43:26 AM
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Actually you did In your above post you speak of the Tinkers as not Aiel because they have been
08/04/2012 06:09:01 AM
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No...
08/04/2012 07:12:22 AM
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You have no evidence that the Tuath'an are mostly comprised of runaways etc
08/04/2012 05:16:54 PM
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Re: You have no evidence that the Tuath'an are mostly comprised of runaways etc
08/04/2012 06:43:27 PM
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Re: You have no evidence that the Tuath'an are mostly comprised of runaways etc
08/04/2012 07:52:10 PM
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Red hair is double recessive ... Doesn't take much to eliminate it from the gene pool. There could
08/04/2012 11:22:36 PM
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You are consistently making the same mistake.
09/04/2012 02:45:46 AM
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They are the same thing. The remnant of a remnant are Aiel
10/04/2012 05:04:55 AM
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No. They are not.
10/04/2012 05:42:29 AM
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Never said the remnant of the remnant was the whole of the Aiel
10/04/2012 05:45:47 PM
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You said that redefining the Aiel would allow Aviendha's vision to be possible.
10/04/2012 06:53:51 PM
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No , I said there were many ways to interpret the statement based on how one defines Aiel
10/04/2012 07:36:11 PM
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All of which is entirely irrelevant.
10/04/2012 07:38:29 PM
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Actually it states he will save a remnant of a remnant
10/04/2012 07:47:04 PM
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Re: Actually it states he will save a remnant of a remnant
11/04/2012 01:40:36 AM
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That is what I just said
14/04/2012 01:41:56 AM
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What is important about that?
14/04/2012 04:35:55 AM
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The importance is that the prophesy says that Rand
14/04/2012 06:06:31 PM
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So what you're saying is...
14/04/2012 09:45:36 PM
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That's exactly it
14/04/2012 11:21:25 PM
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Good.
15/04/2012 02:01:14 AM
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He sets it in motion, thus his actions lead to it
15/04/2012 02:55:13 PM
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Yes, but in that case, he is responsible for everything, ever.
15/04/2012 05:29:31 PM
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We are interpreting Prophesy here ... Direct v. Indirect actions are what we are discussing
15/04/2012 07:21:29 PM
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Re: We are interpreting Prophesy here ... Direct v. Indirect actions are what we are discussing
17/04/2012 04:18:32 AM
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Of course, but the point of my example was...
17/04/2012 06:08:09 PM
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Where are you getting this happens over thousands of years?
18/04/2012 01:47:42 PM
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