Re: We are interpreting Prophesy here ... Direct v. Indirect actions are what we are discussing
DomA Send a noteboard - 17/04/2012 04:18:32 AM
Because Rand will save existence itself from Shai'tan, anything and everything that happens does so only because Rand allowed it to be preventing the total annihilation of everything.
You cannot take it so literally as the actions of only one person that matter. Rand has set in motion dozens of courses of action that probably end with a Prophesy fulfilled, characters have spoken about how the Prophesies are so cryptic he could have fulfilled dozens without them even knowing it. If Rand does not save existence then by default nothing else can happen.
And YES by saving existence itself Rand is indirectly responsible for anything that happens after. Clearly we see potential for people to make their own choices, but without Rand those choices are not possible and thus trace back to Rand. This does not mean Rand must do these deeds himself in order for Prophesy to be fulfilled, his mere existence enables the Prophesies to unfold.
His personal actions are almost incidental to the fulfillment of macro-level Prophesy such as the death of almost an entire race of people, unless you believe he will personally kill all but a remnant of the Aiel. His choices (i.e. saving those who,will accept the Peace of the Dragon) set Prophesy in motion... Thus twenty years after his death/dissapearance the Aiel who did not follow his Peace choose to wage an unwinnable war and end up dying out. They no longer have a purpose in the Pattern and are thus cut from it. Could as easily be some kind of plague or they could in fact die during TG. There are many options for the vast majority of the Aiel to die... Aviendha's vision is simply one of those options. An unlikely one as it clearly shows the Aiel in flagrant disregard to their own Prophesy, something they do not seem likely to do.
Think of how the Mirror Worlds work, they split off into infinite options based on an individual's choices/actions in life. Would Nynaeve of the main world be responsible for the actions created by the Nynaeve of a Mirror World? Or the actions of a Nynaeve of a Mirror World several times removed from the real world?
I agree with the general principle, but in this specific prophecy, it says flatly Rand shall save a remnant of a remnant of those who call themselves Aiel, and that remnant will live. There's no denying that solely by winning TG Rand can be said to have saved humanity including Aiel, but Ben has solid points about this: after TG and before Rand died, the Aiel in Aviendha's vision aren't a remnant of a remnant, the Aiel appear to have survived TG more or less strong as ever. Rand saved most of them, which flatly contradicts this verse. Far from saving a remnant of a remnant, in Aviendha's vision Rand's Peace, which couldn't hold because it brushed off rather than resolved the conflicts, set in motion the events leading to the near extermination of the Aiel a few centuries later (the few survivors at the end looked like they wouldn't survive long...), and it's nothing to do with following the Peace of the Dragon that made those few remaining Aiel at the end survive... It's despite what Rand did that they survived. This would stretch the wording of the prophecy way, way too much, to the point it's absurd. Aviendha's vision didn't give us hints as to how Rand won TG in this future, but it's very obvious something happened to make various prophecies fail in the future Aviendha saw, or that it's not based off pure reality but incorporates elements from other sources. Rand found a way to win against the DO that isn't what the KC predicted (or the program of the vision worked on the assumption Rand won TG, but the AS had no idea how) When you consider Aviendha had her vision before Rand's epiphany, a case can be made that her vision was of a future in which Rand's epiphany didn't happen. It's as if however the ter'angreal does, the future was extrapolated perhaps out of how things stood at the time (the Aiel still believing Rand would enforce a peace with the Seanchan and still intending to go to war against the Seanchan), the rest was contributed by Aviendha's own possible futures. It wasn't the future, which can't be predicted in nearly as many details, it was an extrapolation, likely made using the properties of the "if worlds" and the little the Rhuidean AS had foreseen of the future of the Aiel. It was a warning for Aviendha of the kind of future the Aiel may have post TG if they remain warriors. One of the main factors involved is the Shaido. It's how Rand most meaningfully broke the Aiel with the Leaf in the end, by splitting Couladin and Sevanna from the rest of the clans - and breaking them like twigs at Dumai's Well, forcing their retreat. The majority of those he broke ended up behind Sevanna, and her depradations and her raids over the Wetlands is what turned the Aiel into the enemies of the Seanchan and Wetlanders (beside the enmity gained in Tear and Cairhien), and made it terribly difficult for the Aiel to remain warriors once they won't have Rand's protection anymore, and once the WT's protection will also fail. Exactly like the Rhuidean Aes Sedai had no final answer, Aviendha's vision didn't offer her any hint of a solution - and I don't think it's a coincidence. If there's a prophecy somewhere that says the Aiel have to return to the beliefs and ways of the da'shain Aiel of old, we don't know about it. It sounds as if all the Rhuidean AS could see was the destruction of the Aiel warriors, which at first made them fight for the Aiel to remain pacifists, until they understood from what was happening with the Jenn that this also meant extermination, and thus extrapolate that until a certain era the Aiel must be warriors and eventually return to the old ways. Then they build devices to remind the leaders of each generation about the Aiel's real past, and it appears, to one day give one of them their vision of the Aiel's slow destruction, fleshed out with details from Aviendha's own possible futures. What's missing from all this right now is the part of the Rhuidean AS's vision that convinced them the Aiel, the da'shain Aiel that is, had to survive... It's nowehere to be found in Aviendha's vision, or the prophecies we know about at this point. It may not be referred to in the KC at all (or in obscure ways not associated to the Aiel by anyone for now). Deirdre seems to have foreseen something, but we don't know what over 500 years later motivated AS to join the Aiel had work toward their survival (but the fact they worked so hard, expanded so many scarce resources, to build a great AOL-style city for the Aiel might suggest that behind the Tinkers' garbled notions that the Song could bring back the AOL might be an actual prophecy that the Aiel and their old beliefs and powers were foreseen to be a key element to the world built post TG. As warriors they will become a key factor with the Seanchan and WT/BT in throwing civilization into a very bleak and dark world, or if they stay/return to pacifism and the da'shain's old powers (and probably other things we don't yet understand the meaning of, eg: the real nature and purpose of their service to AS), they will bring about a wholly different world. Nothing we know say the Aiel have to play a crucial role during TG itself. Their real purpose, and choices, may play in what comes after that. It could well be that what Aviendha will decide to ask of the Aiel is for the Last Battle to be literally their last, to vow that once Shai'tan is defeated, they will throw away their spears and abandon their warrior culture. This would cause a great deal of the Aiel to decide they wish to die fighting the Shadow rather than live through what comes next, and the remnant of a remnant are those among the survivors of TG Rand convinces of the worthiness of living again the life of the da'shain ((the survivors are the initial remnant, those who go back to the Way and remain Aiel are the remnant of that remnant). Aviendha has no alternative to offer the warriors, merely a warning they must not remain warriors and fight agains the Seanchan. The rest is all in Rand's hands, he's the one who knows what it really meant to be da'shain Aiel and why the Aiel had those beliefs and ways - the Glass Columns merely showed scraps of what that life really was. Incidentally, Rand is also the only one who can tell the Aiel what being Dedicated back then was really about.
Aviendha, the columns, and the Seanchan
03/04/2012 04:29:31 PM
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The entire point, I believe, is to give Avienda the opportunity to change that future
03/04/2012 05:13:48 PM
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As far as I understand it, that future is impossible anyway.
03/04/2012 07:30:52 PM
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Depends on how one defines Aiel
04/04/2012 04:11:11 AM
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There are more than there were before.
04/04/2012 07:03:27 AM
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But when the prophesy was made there many followers
04/04/2012 10:10:54 AM
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The Tuatha'an are not Aiel.
04/04/2012 06:28:47 PM
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Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel.
05/04/2012 01:41:23 AM
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Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel.
05/04/2012 07:39:04 AM
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Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel.
05/04/2012 02:14:37 PM
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Yes, I was thinking of the Aiel's suicidal traditions as well.
05/04/2012 06:24:56 PM
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Re: Yes, I was thinking of the Aiel's suicidal traditions as well.
06/04/2012 12:20:31 AM
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Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel.
06/04/2012 10:38:24 PM
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Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel.
07/04/2012 06:27:27 AM
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Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel.
07/04/2012 07:23:03 PM
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So what you're saying...
07/04/2012 10:07:59 PM
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What I am saying is that it's not a "pure bloodline" that makes one an Aiel
08/04/2012 12:16:10 AM
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I never said it was.
08/04/2012 12:43:26 AM
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Actually you did In your above post you speak of the Tinkers as not Aiel because they have been
08/04/2012 06:09:01 AM
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No...
08/04/2012 07:12:22 AM
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You have no evidence that the Tuath'an are mostly comprised of runaways etc
08/04/2012 05:16:54 PM
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Re: You have no evidence that the Tuath'an are mostly comprised of runaways etc
08/04/2012 06:43:27 PM
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Re: You have no evidence that the Tuath'an are mostly comprised of runaways etc
08/04/2012 07:52:10 PM
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Red hair is double recessive ... Doesn't take much to eliminate it from the gene pool. There could
08/04/2012 11:22:36 PM
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You are consistently making the same mistake.
09/04/2012 02:45:46 AM
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They are the same thing. The remnant of a remnant are Aiel
10/04/2012 05:04:55 AM
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No. They are not.
10/04/2012 05:42:29 AM
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Never said the remnant of the remnant was the whole of the Aiel
10/04/2012 05:45:47 PM
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You said that redefining the Aiel would allow Aviendha's vision to be possible.
10/04/2012 06:53:51 PM
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No , I said there were many ways to interpret the statement based on how one defines Aiel
10/04/2012 07:36:11 PM
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All of which is entirely irrelevant.
10/04/2012 07:38:29 PM
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Actually it states he will save a remnant of a remnant
10/04/2012 07:47:04 PM
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Re: Actually it states he will save a remnant of a remnant
11/04/2012 01:40:36 AM
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That is what I just said
14/04/2012 01:41:56 AM
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What is important about that?
14/04/2012 04:35:55 AM
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The importance is that the prophesy says that Rand
14/04/2012 06:06:31 PM
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So what you're saying is...
14/04/2012 09:45:36 PM
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That's exactly it
14/04/2012 11:21:25 PM
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Good.
15/04/2012 02:01:14 AM
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He sets it in motion, thus his actions lead to it
15/04/2012 02:55:13 PM
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Yes, but in that case, he is responsible for everything, ever.
15/04/2012 05:29:31 PM
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We are interpreting Prophesy here ... Direct v. Indirect actions are what we are discussing
15/04/2012 07:21:29 PM
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Re: We are interpreting Prophesy here ... Direct v. Indirect actions are what we are discussing
17/04/2012 04:18:32 AM
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Of course, but the point of my example was...
17/04/2012 06:08:09 PM
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Where are you getting this happens over thousands of years?
18/04/2012 01:47:42 PM
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