You have no evidence that the Tuath'an are mostly comprised of runaways etc
darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 08/04/2012 05:16:54 PM
Mixing with the rest of the world too long.
... I said that by being mostly composed of people who were not bloodline Aiel, they were not Aiel genetically.
I also said that by abandoning their charge, they were not Aiel philosophically.
I said that in those two specific areas, the Tuatha'an could not be considered Aiel. I did not assert that either one of these were what defined an Aiel, nor even that both together were. They were simply the two possibilities that seemed most probable for asserting that the Tuatha'an might count as Aiel for the purpose of the prophecy.
2. I think it is an unclear matter on the true nature of the Aiel. Those who live in the Waste and call themselves Aiel would never have been accepted by their ancestors as they do not follow the Way. Thus the people who wrote the Prophesy could have been speaking of the ideological sense of Aiel rather than some racial sense of the Aiel. Personally I am beginning to believe the Aiel will need to embrace the Way once again to save their remnant of a remnant.
Here's the issue.
First of all, following the Way of the Leaf is not the extent of the ideological definition of the Aiel. Their ideology is one of not only pacifism, but also of servitude, something the Tuatha'an do not follow. The Aiel were servants to the Aes Sedai, servants to the Servants of All. Also, if we look at Rand's visions, it seems that being an Aiel is something hereditary, unless it just happened those ancestors were simply following in the family business. Though that would seem unlikely, as surely some of the Clan Chiefs' or Wise Ones' ancestors did not choose to be Aiel? Or maybe that's where the memories stop, at the first non-Aiel ancestor. Anyway, the Tuatha'an abandoned their duties, that's why I said they were not philosophically Aiel.
But let us go by your definition and replace "the Aiel" by "those who follow the Way of the Leaf" in the prophecy you agreed was correct.
Do you then believe that He Who Comes With The Dawn will destroy "those who follow the Way of the Leaf" except for a remnant of a remnant whom he shall save?
There are legends that they accept outsiders, but by all evidence we have seen they are clan based and family oriented. In fact they have strong traditions that clearly get passed down through generations. Certainly they have a larger degree out "outside blood" than the Aiel of the waste, but that is not evidence that more than a handful of the Tuatha'an are runaways from other societies ... In fact given the general disdain the vast majority of the world has shown the Tuatha'an it seems highly unlikely that anyone would runaway to join them. Much like the Romani/Gypsy people the Tuatha'an are accused of just about anything that goes amiss when they pass through, including young people going missing.
I also see no evidence that there is no sense of servitude within thier community either. In every instance we have seen them they have shown their willingness to serve those around them and their own community. The scene in the TR when they strapped children to their backs is evidence to me that the Tuatha'an have a deeply ingrained sense of service to community. In addition their dedication to finding the Song shows that they have a dedicated task to which they claim service.
With that said, you are correct that the Tuatha'an did abandon their duty. But no more so than the Aiel of the Waste did... Perhaps less so as they seemingly adopted a new duty rather than following one task from one Aes Sedai. The Aiel of the waste abandoned the very core of what it meant to be Aiel by abandoning the Way.
Those who spoke the Prophesy would not have seen either of these groups as true Aiel. But given that each group holds pieces of the puzzle it seems likely that the remnant of a remnant must rediscover the ideology of the Way in order to survive.
The Prophesy likely served as a warning to the Aiel of the waste as their warrior culture puts them squarely at the center of conflict, but should the Light win TG there is a chance Aviendha's vision could still come true if some of her people, along with the Tuatha'an who survived the various wars after TG, accepted the Way of the Leaf. This group would not have been part of the Aiel as Aviendha saw them in her visions and could still have easliy fit into the Seanchan ruled world as we've seen that the Seanchan accept the Tuatha'an's ways without issue. Hell they could even be in service to the Empress if you really want to start extrapolating.
As the Aiel in Rands visions once said "The Aiel are the Way" ... So yes I believe the Prophesy is more wide spread than simply the Aiel of the Waste.
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
Aviendha, the columns, and the Seanchan
03/04/2012 04:29:31 PM
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The entire point, I believe, is to give Avienda the opportunity to change that future
03/04/2012 05:13:48 PM
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As far as I understand it, that future is impossible anyway.
03/04/2012 07:30:52 PM
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Depends on how one defines Aiel
04/04/2012 04:11:11 AM
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There are more than there were before.
04/04/2012 07:03:27 AM
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But when the prophesy was made there many followers
04/04/2012 10:10:54 AM
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The Tuatha'an are not Aiel.
04/04/2012 06:28:47 PM
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Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel.
05/04/2012 01:41:23 AM
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Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel.
05/04/2012 07:39:04 AM
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Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel.
05/04/2012 02:14:37 PM
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Yes, I was thinking of the Aiel's suicidal traditions as well.
05/04/2012 06:24:56 PM
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Re: Yes, I was thinking of the Aiel's suicidal traditions as well.
06/04/2012 12:20:31 AM
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Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel.
06/04/2012 10:38:24 PM
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Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel.
07/04/2012 06:27:27 AM
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Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel.
07/04/2012 07:23:03 PM
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So what you're saying...
07/04/2012 10:07:59 PM
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What I am saying is that it's not a "pure bloodline" that makes one an Aiel
08/04/2012 12:16:10 AM
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I never said it was.
08/04/2012 12:43:26 AM
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Actually you did In your above post you speak of the Tinkers as not Aiel because they have been
08/04/2012 06:09:01 AM
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No...
08/04/2012 07:12:22 AM
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You have no evidence that the Tuath'an are mostly comprised of runaways etc
08/04/2012 05:16:54 PM
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Re: You have no evidence that the Tuath'an are mostly comprised of runaways etc
08/04/2012 06:43:27 PM
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Re: You have no evidence that the Tuath'an are mostly comprised of runaways etc
08/04/2012 07:52:10 PM
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Red hair is double recessive ... Doesn't take much to eliminate it from the gene pool. There could
08/04/2012 11:22:36 PM
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You are consistently making the same mistake.
09/04/2012 02:45:46 AM
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They are the same thing. The remnant of a remnant are Aiel
10/04/2012 05:04:55 AM
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No. They are not.
10/04/2012 05:42:29 AM
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Never said the remnant of the remnant was the whole of the Aiel
10/04/2012 05:45:47 PM
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You said that redefining the Aiel would allow Aviendha's vision to be possible.
10/04/2012 06:53:51 PM
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No , I said there were many ways to interpret the statement based on how one defines Aiel
10/04/2012 07:36:11 PM
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All of which is entirely irrelevant.
10/04/2012 07:38:29 PM
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Actually it states he will save a remnant of a remnant
10/04/2012 07:47:04 PM
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Re: Actually it states he will save a remnant of a remnant
11/04/2012 01:40:36 AM
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That is what I just said
14/04/2012 01:41:56 AM
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What is important about that?
14/04/2012 04:35:55 AM
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The importance is that the prophesy says that Rand
14/04/2012 06:06:31 PM
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So what you're saying is...
14/04/2012 09:45:36 PM
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That's exactly it
14/04/2012 11:21:25 PM
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Good.
15/04/2012 02:01:14 AM
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He sets it in motion, thus his actions lead to it
15/04/2012 02:55:13 PM
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Yes, but in that case, he is responsible for everything, ever.
15/04/2012 05:29:31 PM
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We are interpreting Prophesy here ... Direct v. Indirect actions are what we are discussing
15/04/2012 07:21:29 PM
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Re: We are interpreting Prophesy here ... Direct v. Indirect actions are what we are discussing
17/04/2012 04:18:32 AM
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Of course, but the point of my example was...
17/04/2012 06:08:09 PM
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Where are you getting this happens over thousands of years?
18/04/2012 01:47:42 PM
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