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Re: Yes, I was thinking of the Aiel's suicidal traditions as well. DomA Send a noteboard - 06/04/2012 12:20:31 AM
Also their connection with the Amayar whose "Water Way" lead to a different sort of mass suicide.


I thought of this too.

We know another purpose this event had (beside showing "the balance" effect surrounding the Cleansing.. its price, so to speak). The Amayar made one of the choices that would be before Rand at the end (kill himself to put an end to his suffering and avoid the LB, destroy Creation to put an end to it all, or become body and soul the Creator's Champion). Of course, the Amayar also replicated even more LTT's choice after his failure, and his Kinslaying beforehand. That's primarly what RJ meant to echo I guess... The taint brought the Kinslaying and LTT's suicide to escape in death his mission and from his suffering, the Amayar slayed their kin and committed suicide as saidin was getting cleansed.

Only RJ knew what sort of rebirth awaited them for what they've done though... there really seems to be payback in WOT - several characters have been "punished" or "rewarded" ironically by the Wheel for their actions/decisions (Elaida becoming a damane not the least,etc.), which hints at a mechanism not very far from the notion of karma being in place.

But then... the Amayar/Da'shain/Tuatha'an "religion" makes them awfully passive. It's a lot about surrendering free will and letting the Wheel weave you as it wills, like water in the sea, like a leaf on the wind (there's also big remnants of this in the Aiel culture... life is but a dream you must awake from (so being an eternal soul in limbo between lives is "reality";) is very close to the Time of Illusion doctrine). That would make those individuals the easiest for the Wheel to push and pull (ji'e'toh has a similar effect of "programming" some of your decisions) Perhaps it's part of the belief system to be "sacrificed" for balance's sake when the Wheel needs it. The Asha'man (and all the children with the spark) were all doomed to die but the Cleansing saved all of them; to allow for such a fundamental change in the Pattern (without tearing it apart, maybe?), the Amayar died in their place. Perhaps their prophecies were quite blunt about them having to die when the CK was used again. We might be doing them a big injustice when saying they did it to "escape" or avoid the suffering of the LB. It may rather be because the prophecies told them to, and they never go against "the current".

It's more than just idle thoughts, because I'm wondering if the Aiel/Tinkers (there's an awful big lot of them - a remnant of a remnant means a huge lot of people dying...) have not been similarly chosen by the Wheel to be a sacrificial lamb to balance the closing of the Bore. It's a very strange coincidence that two identified da'shain branches of three have to disappear from the Pattern, one when the Taint was undone, one likely when the Bore will be closed. If we follow that logic of "balance", the Breaking was the price paid to let the Wheel be able to adapt the Pattern to include the temporary sealing. Of course, this is also how ta'veren works. The Wheel need ta'veren to be able to achieve "macro changes", but there's a big lot of side effects around them to balance it out.
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Aviendha, the columns, and the Seanchan - 03/04/2012 04:29:31 PM 1941 Views
As far as I understand it, that future is impossible anyway. - 03/04/2012 07:30:52 PM 960 Views
Depends on how one defines Aiel - 04/04/2012 04:11:11 AM 916 Views
There are more than there were before. - 04/04/2012 07:03:27 AM 928 Views
But when the prophesy was made there many followers - 04/04/2012 10:10:54 AM 845 Views
The Tuatha'an are not Aiel. - 04/04/2012 06:28:47 PM 918 Views
Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel. - 05/04/2012 01:41:23 AM 1066 Views
Well that more than covers it *NM* - 05/04/2012 04:43:53 AM 447 Views
Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel. - 05/04/2012 07:39:04 AM 966 Views
Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel. - 05/04/2012 02:14:37 PM 1162 Views
For the record I agree that the visions are not true either - 05/04/2012 02:25:47 PM 904 Views
Re: For the record I agree that the visions are not true either - 05/04/2012 11:36:53 PM 887 Views
Yes, I was thinking of the Aiel's suicidal traditions as well. - 05/04/2012 06:24:56 PM 832 Views
Re: Yes, I was thinking of the Aiel's suicidal traditions as well. - 06/04/2012 12:20:31 AM 981 Views
Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel. - 06/04/2012 10:51:00 PM 873 Views
Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel. - 06/04/2012 10:38:24 PM 1114 Views
Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel. - 07/04/2012 06:27:27 AM 827 Views
Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel. - 07/04/2012 07:23:03 PM 786 Views
So what you're saying... - 07/04/2012 10:07:59 PM 732 Views
What I am saying is that it's not a "pure bloodline" that makes one an Aiel - 08/04/2012 12:16:10 AM 825 Views
I never said it was. - 08/04/2012 12:43:26 AM 900 Views
Actually you did In your above post you speak of the Tinkers as not Aiel because they have been - 08/04/2012 06:09:01 AM 838 Views
No... - 08/04/2012 07:12:22 AM 943 Views
You have no evidence that the Tuath'an are mostly comprised of runaways etc - 08/04/2012 05:16:54 PM 917 Views
Re: You have no evidence that the Tuath'an are mostly comprised of runaways etc - 08/04/2012 06:43:27 PM 943 Views
Re: You have no evidence that the Tuath'an are mostly comprised of runaways etc - 08/04/2012 07:52:10 PM 734 Views
Thanks for that. - 09/04/2012 02:38:25 AM 662 Views
Red hair is double recessive ... Doesn't take much to eliminate it from the gene pool. There could - 08/04/2012 11:22:36 PM 877 Views
You are consistently making the same mistake. - 09/04/2012 02:45:46 AM 723 Views
They are the same thing. The remnant of a remnant are Aiel - 10/04/2012 05:04:55 AM 867 Views
No. They are not. - 10/04/2012 05:42:29 AM 765 Views
Never said the remnant of the remnant was the whole of the Aiel - 10/04/2012 05:45:47 PM 783 Views
You said that redefining the Aiel would allow Aviendha's vision to be possible. - 10/04/2012 06:53:51 PM 950 Views
No , I said there were many ways to interpret the statement based on how one defines Aiel - 10/04/2012 07:36:11 PM 731 Views
All of which is entirely irrelevant. - 10/04/2012 07:38:29 PM 753 Views
Actually it states he will save a remnant of a remnant - 10/04/2012 07:47:04 PM 818 Views
Re: Actually it states he will save a remnant of a remnant - 11/04/2012 01:40:36 AM 801 Views
That is what I just said - 14/04/2012 01:41:56 AM 766 Views
What is important about that? - 14/04/2012 04:35:55 AM 739 Views
The importance is that the prophesy says that Rand - 14/04/2012 06:06:31 PM 912 Views
So what you're saying is... - 14/04/2012 09:45:36 PM 790 Views
That's exactly it - 14/04/2012 11:21:25 PM 860 Views
Good. - 15/04/2012 02:01:14 AM 883 Views
He sets it in motion, thus his actions lead to it - 15/04/2012 02:55:13 PM 746 Views
Yes, but in that case, he is responsible for everything, ever. - 15/04/2012 05:29:31 PM 850 Views
We are interpreting Prophesy here ... Direct v. Indirect actions are what we are discussing - 15/04/2012 07:21:29 PM 743 Views
Re: We are interpreting Prophesy here ... Direct v. Indirect actions are what we are discussing - 17/04/2012 04:18:32 AM 934 Views
Depends on how you look at the Prophesy - 18/04/2012 01:45:23 PM 695 Views
Of course, but the point of my example was... - 17/04/2012 06:08:09 PM 734 Views
Where are you getting this happens over thousands of years? - 18/04/2012 01:47:42 PM 734 Views
Because that was the important part of that post. - 18/04/2012 05:28:10 PM 864 Views
Don't know when this became about winning - 19/04/2012 02:08:16 AM 649 Views
Re: I never said it was. - 18/04/2012 12:37:23 AM 918 Views
Re: As far as I understand it, that future is impossible anyway. - 04/04/2012 07:16:13 AM 964 Views
Re: As far as I understand it, that future is impossible anyway. - 06/04/2012 10:33:00 PM 842 Views
Thank you for that analysis. *NM* - 17/04/2012 12:36:08 AM 425 Views

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