Re: For the record I agree that the visions are not true either
DomA Send a noteboard - 05/04/2012 11:36:53 PM
I think we've seen often enough that true prophesy (i.e. Foretelling) cannot be changed, but is almost always so cryptic that it's almost impossible to figure out anyway. Dreaming is more general and allows for "Possible" future events ... Things like the Ter'angreal could be visions like what Rand and the others had from mirror worlds ... No reason to believe this is more than one possible set of future events.
I would think even more along the lines of the Rings in Rhuidean (though I think those are indeed using the Mirror Worlds, ie: they don't use the "real" pattern to show the future, they show the Pattern branching out into Mirror Worlds because of important choices).
They can show many (an understatement - they overwhelm you with them) branchings/mirrors depending how things stands when you enter them, and what choices you will make. Moiraine has seen many predictions of the future - choices she then rejected because of their outcome. Jordan said the Wheel was like a computer and not sentient, so I think it's also how it works, how it makes its decisions to weave the Pattern. If it needs to pull at a ta'veren, it runs "simulations" by creating mirrors. That's how it determines what factors must be involved for Rand to make this or that choice. Its power is virtually endless, so it can run calculations over many generations. The further in time, the less accurate no doubt, but accurate enough to figure out the great lines very long in advance. The rest of the details, the Wheel calculates much closer to the events, when all the souls involved are present in the Pattern. So millenia ago it decided a woman not tied to any man would give birth to Rand on DM. That was fixed in stone and became a foretelling. The details about Tigraine were projected much later.
I think the Rings tap into these functions of the Wheel, so to speak. Of course the human brain isn't the Wheel, so that's way, way too much projections for the brain to compute. You end up remembering only your key choices.
I'm pretty convinced the two ter'angreal were either designed or programmed by the same women. They have complementary purposes, IMO.
Of course I'm one of those who believe Aviendha's vision was no "accident", that it was the purpose of the Rhuidean AS that one day on the eve of TG a Wise One would be shown the future awaiting the Aiel if they remained warriors and fought. So it's now up to her to make the right choices so it doesn't happen. Like the programming showing the past, it would be linked to the user's bloodline/DNA or something like DNA but linked to souls or however the ter'angreal works, so Aviendha saw her descendants. And this was the final purpose of the Glass Columns. Somehow (her blood, her soul, her bond to Rand... the data collected from when she went in the Rings and was shown it was her who was the Aiel who would marry Rand etc. - there's many possibilities how the machine could identify her as the right woman), the ter'angreal chose Aviendha.
Given all the high tech devices in Rhuidean, it's far from impossible the woman who "guided" Aviendha wasn't a real woman at all but something coming for a virtual reality device set up by the Rhuidean Aes Sedai. She was no more "real" (but no less) than the people seen in the Glass Columns. My guess is that she was from Aviendha's bloodline - perhaps da'shain or more likely Jenn (families split - several bloodlines among the Aiel could very well have Jenn/Tinker ancestors whose offspring joined the warriors at some point) .
I get the feeling we will fully understand those scenes only when the Encyclopedia comes out and we get some of RJ's explanations of how the various ter'angreal really work (if we get that, but apparently that stuff is in RJ's notes and it's where Harriet will go pick her information, so there's good chances we get some stuff like this... hopefully).
I also get the feeling RJ gave us a final mystery à la Asmodean on purpose with this, in the sense that what we saw could very well be the only exposition we ever get about Aviendha's four children, the rest will be obscure clues related to their conception or something like that.
But I would definitely not call Aviendha's vision "prophecy".
It's too bad Sanderson chose to place it not toward the end of TGS but in the middle of TOM, out of chronological order. This appears to change a lot the dramatic purpose those scenes were supposed to have, at least it doesn't seem possible that Aviendha reached Rhuidean after Rand's epiphany, but the way Brandon didn't respect Jordan's convention to order the scenes chronologically in his books, we'll never know for sure. If Aviendha's vision occured after the epiphany, it could be a lot more dire, but that is most unlikely. If she did what she discussed with Amys, she reached Rhuidean between Rand's meeting with Tuon or at most shortly before the WT got attacked. The possible futures were very bleak then, all waiting for Rand.
Aviendha, the columns, and the Seanchan
03/04/2012 04:29:31 PM
- 1879 Views
The entire point, I believe, is to give Avienda the opportunity to change that future
03/04/2012 05:13:48 PM
- 1136 Views
As far as I understand it, that future is impossible anyway.
03/04/2012 07:30:52 PM
- 895 Views
Depends on how one defines Aiel
04/04/2012 04:11:11 AM
- 839 Views
There are more than there were before.
04/04/2012 07:03:27 AM
- 862 Views
But when the prophesy was made there many followers
04/04/2012 10:10:54 AM
- 765 Views
The Tuatha'an are not Aiel.
04/04/2012 06:28:47 PM
- 845 Views
Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel.
05/04/2012 01:41:23 AM
- 974 Views
Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel.
05/04/2012 07:39:04 AM
- 873 Views
Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel.
05/04/2012 02:14:37 PM
- 1076 Views
For the record I agree that the visions are not true either
05/04/2012 02:25:47 PM
- 829 Views
Re: For the record I agree that the visions are not true either
05/04/2012 11:36:53 PM
- 820 Views
Yes, I was thinking of the Aiel's suicidal traditions as well.
05/04/2012 06:24:56 PM
- 764 Views
Re: Yes, I was thinking of the Aiel's suicidal traditions as well.
06/04/2012 12:20:31 AM
- 871 Views
Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel.
06/04/2012 10:38:24 PM
- 1048 Views
Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel.
07/04/2012 06:27:27 AM
- 752 Views
Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel.
07/04/2012 07:23:03 PM
- 716 Views
So what you're saying...
07/04/2012 10:07:59 PM
- 662 Views
What I am saying is that it's not a "pure bloodline" that makes one an Aiel
08/04/2012 12:16:10 AM
- 772 Views
I never said it was.
08/04/2012 12:43:26 AM
- 830 Views
Actually you did In your above post you speak of the Tinkers as not Aiel because they have been
08/04/2012 06:09:01 AM
- 766 Views
No...
08/04/2012 07:12:22 AM
- 883 Views
You have no evidence that the Tuath'an are mostly comprised of runaways etc
08/04/2012 05:16:54 PM
- 843 Views
Re: You have no evidence that the Tuath'an are mostly comprised of runaways etc
08/04/2012 06:43:27 PM
- 872 Views
Re: You have no evidence that the Tuath'an are mostly comprised of runaways etc
08/04/2012 07:52:10 PM
- 667 Views
Red hair is double recessive ... Doesn't take much to eliminate it from the gene pool. There could
08/04/2012 11:22:36 PM
- 810 Views
You are consistently making the same mistake.
09/04/2012 02:45:46 AM
- 654 Views
They are the same thing. The remnant of a remnant are Aiel
10/04/2012 05:04:55 AM
- 795 Views
No. They are not.
10/04/2012 05:42:29 AM
- 689 Views
Never said the remnant of the remnant was the whole of the Aiel
10/04/2012 05:45:47 PM
- 695 Views
You said that redefining the Aiel would allow Aviendha's vision to be possible.
10/04/2012 06:53:51 PM
- 876 Views
No , I said there were many ways to interpret the statement based on how one defines Aiel
10/04/2012 07:36:11 PM
- 655 Views
All of which is entirely irrelevant.
10/04/2012 07:38:29 PM
- 666 Views
Actually it states he will save a remnant of a remnant
10/04/2012 07:47:04 PM
- 744 Views
Re: Actually it states he will save a remnant of a remnant
11/04/2012 01:40:36 AM
- 725 Views
That is what I just said
14/04/2012 01:41:56 AM
- 696 Views
What is important about that?
14/04/2012 04:35:55 AM
- 674 Views
The importance is that the prophesy says that Rand
14/04/2012 06:06:31 PM
- 844 Views
So what you're saying is...
14/04/2012 09:45:36 PM
- 707 Views
That's exactly it
14/04/2012 11:21:25 PM
- 791 Views
Good.
15/04/2012 02:01:14 AM
- 808 Views
He sets it in motion, thus his actions lead to it
15/04/2012 02:55:13 PM
- 679 Views
Yes, but in that case, he is responsible for everything, ever.
15/04/2012 05:29:31 PM
- 771 Views
We are interpreting Prophesy here ... Direct v. Indirect actions are what we are discussing
15/04/2012 07:21:29 PM
- 679 Views
Re: We are interpreting Prophesy here ... Direct v. Indirect actions are what we are discussing
17/04/2012 04:18:32 AM
- 843 Views
Of course, but the point of my example was...
17/04/2012 06:08:09 PM
- 663 Views
Where are you getting this happens over thousands of years?
18/04/2012 01:47:42 PM
- 664 Views