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Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel. DomA Send a noteboard - 05/04/2012 02:14:37 PM
With the full memories of LTT, after the fashion he is a master of time travel.


Well, that's not really time travel. Like a historian or an archaeologist, Rand only knows from the past from his source. And a single individual's eyewitness account, at that :P.

As to the main point, however, I of course agree that Rand destroying the Aiel will likely have something more to do with the Way of the Leaf, and that the followers could justifiably be considered a remnant of a remnant that he saves, except that this is only half of the prophecy. The rest of the Aiel must be destroyed, and I do not believe leaving them to pursue the lifestyle they've followed for millennia can be counted as "destroying" them. Unless we follow it through all the way to the end of Aviendha's vision, but I cannot accept that for two reasons:

1- It means that Aviendha's vision is actually true and inevitable,

2- The prophecy clearly states that this needs to be Rand's responsibility, and I have a very hard time blaming Rand for decisions made by others after his death in stubborn pursuit of a lifestyle they chose long before his birth. Rand's actions may be responsible for the circumstances that lead his children to make that decision, but Rand is shaping the entire world around him, there's unlikely to be any event in the future that cannot somehow be connected to Rand's actions, if only because Rand is probably responsible for the continued existence of the world that makes that 'future' possible anyway.

Rand's epiphany was about being less controlling of everybody's life and allowing them to make the right choices of their own volition, I cannot find a way to make this consistent with blaming Rand for the destruction of the Aiel dozens of generations after his death just because he created a world that bored the Aiel.

Which, to return to my original point, leaves that prophecy of "destruction of the Aiel" unaccounted for, either in the present or in Aviendha's vision, and therefore conclude that Aviendha's vision cannot happen.


I think it may not be too "mysterious".

I agree on Aviendha's vision being invalid at this point (see my other post for the full rationale, but it's similar to yours). I agree that Aviendha's vision is divorced from the prophecies and not their real fulfillment. We know this, know the remnant isn't in sight in this and Rand isn't breaking the Aiel like dry twigs, or with the Leaf as in the KC verse.

It's obvious Aviendha will want to do something. It's long been the mission of the WO to puzzle out how Rand will destroy/break and from there try to make the remnant as big as possible (the WO don't believe in fighting against the inevitable. Their philosophy is to accept what you can't change and put your efforts on what you can change.) So basically, Aviendha just became the key Wise One as far as their mission is concerned, and that's about to be completed by reaching the powerful status Sevanna dreamed of: the wife and Wise One of the Chief of chiefs. Aviendah may not have special status, but her power will be real.

When Rand let the truth out about but a few details of the life of the da'shain, the Aiel were shaken and a percentage just fled (notably to the Tuatha'an who were in the Waste to ask to be taken in - some have forgotten there are now ex Aiel warriors with some of the Tinker groups).

Now it's much worse, the topic of debate could be that all the Aiel should join what they refer to as "the bleakness". All first hand knowledge of the da'shain philosophy, purpose, talents etc. would forcibly have to come from Rand/LTT himself. The whole notion that the Aiel should now abandon their warrior culture if they want to survive would shatter the Aiel. What do Aiel do when they are faced with inevitable doom? They find an honorable way to commit suicide. Cornered Aiel in battle try to die heroically, male channellers go uselessly to SG to die (and don't tell them dying but with honour is useless.. they don't see it as useless at all), the crippled warriors go to the desert to die etc. Then there is this central belief of the warriors that atonement for their Sin will come by fighting the Shadow at TG (which we know isn't the sin, the sin was abandonning the Way of the Leaf... "find safety, survive and don't abandon the Way" was the wishes of Deirdre's group. Giving them dangerous OP objects to hide was by and large a device to convince them to abandon Paraan Disen as Da'shain didn't want to leave). It's not a coincidence at all that the Aiel refuse to use the name Last Battle either, dismiss it as "Wetlands prophecies" (it's mostly the WO doing this, - the Aiel themselves don't seem to know the KC much) when we know it's not at all that they don't believe it will happen, it's merely the names Dragon/Last Battle (TG) they refuse (their own name is meaningful and even more dire... the Last Day). There is no "last battle" in traditional Aiel views - your last battle is the one you die at. The trip in the Glass Columns gives a hint to every WO/clan chief that there actually could be an Aiel "last battle". They know that following visions of the future, the Rhuidean AS insisted for the Aiel to always be lead by those who can know and accept who they once were, or they would die. And the Aiel leaders then agreed to this, on a water oath. The WO/cc have long been in denial. They know there's a reason why the Rhuidean AS wanted the leaders to know their past. They choose to focus on the compact in Rhuidean, on agreeing on the way to choose chiefs and WO and forget the rest (it appears the Rings of the WO may have screened candidates for the one with the right future who would be shown the futuristic vision by the Glass Columns. Several WO must have seen glimpses of post TG/TG times from their trip in the Rings - they just don't tell, but after Aviendha tells them what happened to her, they likely will) The Wy must suspect what they once were is a key to the Rhuidean prophecies and the final fate of the Aiel, they just skirt around it, just like they are quite ill at ease (and stubborn) whenever the prophecy that says they might return to serving the AS is brought up (the most pragmatic said stuff like "it may well be, but that's not here nor now, so let's change the subject";). Aviendha brings back a key piece of the final puzzle: if the Aiel remain warriors, they are doomed to a slow complete exctinction whithin a few generations, them and the Aes Sedai and many others.

Aviendha won't sit idly and all her storyline was concerned with the struggle to give up being a warrior (all that remain for her personally is to show the way and give up using the OP for violence...a return to the WO's traditional ways. Many WO went through that (not nearly all of them were FDM), but for Aviendha the process is really fresh.

Since TSR, the Wise Ones have seemingly tried to avoid/delay coming to that (but we don't know if they didn't have dreams about Aviendha's real role they chose not to tell her because it would have broken her... they may be less in denial than we think, merely waiting for the inevitable time to come to face that), but it appears TG may be the Aiel's last battle, after (if not before) it they have to give up the spears, or they go on the path leading to Aviendha's vision. The notion that the prophecies could mean the Aiel have to become da'shain once more could come from Rand, to Aviendha (Aviendha is likely to bring up at least the Peace of the Dragon up with Rand). The notion wouldn't sit well with most of the Aiel. Aviendha isn't likely to convince nearly all WO, less of the clan chiefs and it will be even worse when it comes to convincing the warriors themselves. You'd end up with a remnant of a remnant choosing to follow Aviendha on this path, and what will the rest do? They will find a way to commit suicide in a way they deem honourable, death as the only honorable alternative to become like gai'shain for life. They won't want to survive TG if it means giving up their spears after. These Aiel will fight for Rand all the way to SG, and will die.

It doesn't even mean the "remnant" won't "fight". What the da'shain really did during the WOS is something else Rand/LTT knows everything about.

I agree with you Rand won't force anyone anymore. The only thing he's forcing on anyone at this point are choices. He wouldn't turn away the Aiel who wish to remain warriors anymore than he would refuse to help those who wish to return to da'shain beliefs and ways - and in fact one way he could choose to help is by sharing his LTT perspective about the purpose of the da'shain, what they accomplished and why they were not a source of scorn during the WOS. (Or this could come or after TG... one option could lead to Singing having a role in the LB Rand will figure out before the end, once he has da'shain around him again... the other option leads more to a situation were Singing will be exclusively Crop Singing again and a key factor in humanity's survival post TG after yet another summer without agriculture... not to mention tons of animals will die in TG. Food will be very, very scarce afterward. Mixed gender circles to propely use the Bowl of Winds (not globally but to create micro-climate zones (maybe just one) for agriculture - again, Rand would be the source of that knowledge) + Sung Crops by neo-Da'shain may be what saves humanity from starvation). Yeah, they don't have Nyms and won't get any soon. I don't think Nyms are essential. Aes Sedai (Elaida, Cadsuane have been shown with these skills) can do something quite similar. I think Nym were created so singing crops with the da'shain worlwide didn't monopolize so many AS full time.
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Aviendha, the columns, and the Seanchan - 03/04/2012 04:29:31 PM 1894 Views
As far as I understand it, that future is impossible anyway. - 03/04/2012 07:30:52 PM 907 Views
Depends on how one defines Aiel - 04/04/2012 04:11:11 AM 859 Views
There are more than there were before. - 04/04/2012 07:03:27 AM 879 Views
But when the prophesy was made there many followers - 04/04/2012 10:10:54 AM 784 Views
The Tuatha'an are not Aiel. - 04/04/2012 06:28:47 PM 861 Views
Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel. - 05/04/2012 01:41:23 AM 991 Views
Well that more than covers it *NM* - 05/04/2012 04:43:53 AM 433 Views
Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel. - 05/04/2012 07:39:04 AM 903 Views
Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel. - 05/04/2012 02:14:37 PM 1099 Views
For the record I agree that the visions are not true either - 05/04/2012 02:25:47 PM 843 Views
Re: For the record I agree that the visions are not true either - 05/04/2012 11:36:53 PM 838 Views
Yes, I was thinking of the Aiel's suicidal traditions as well. - 05/04/2012 06:24:56 PM 780 Views
Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel. - 06/04/2012 10:51:00 PM 815 Views
Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel. - 06/04/2012 10:38:24 PM 1066 Views
Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel. - 07/04/2012 06:27:27 AM 768 Views
Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel. - 07/04/2012 07:23:03 PM 733 Views
So what you're saying... - 07/04/2012 10:07:59 PM 678 Views
What I am saying is that it's not a "pure bloodline" that makes one an Aiel - 08/04/2012 12:16:10 AM 789 Views
I never said it was. - 08/04/2012 12:43:26 AM 844 Views
Actually you did In your above post you speak of the Tinkers as not Aiel because they have been - 08/04/2012 06:09:01 AM 780 Views
No... - 08/04/2012 07:12:22 AM 899 Views
You have no evidence that the Tuath'an are mostly comprised of runaways etc - 08/04/2012 05:16:54 PM 862 Views
Re: You have no evidence that the Tuath'an are mostly comprised of runaways etc - 08/04/2012 06:43:27 PM 887 Views
Re: You have no evidence that the Tuath'an are mostly comprised of runaways etc - 08/04/2012 07:52:10 PM 680 Views
Thanks for that. - 09/04/2012 02:38:25 AM 637 Views
Red hair is double recessive ... Doesn't take much to eliminate it from the gene pool. There could - 08/04/2012 11:22:36 PM 826 Views
You are consistently making the same mistake. - 09/04/2012 02:45:46 AM 669 Views
They are the same thing. The remnant of a remnant are Aiel - 10/04/2012 05:04:55 AM 808 Views
No. They are not. - 10/04/2012 05:42:29 AM 707 Views
Never said the remnant of the remnant was the whole of the Aiel - 10/04/2012 05:45:47 PM 714 Views
You said that redefining the Aiel would allow Aviendha's vision to be possible. - 10/04/2012 06:53:51 PM 892 Views
No , I said there were many ways to interpret the statement based on how one defines Aiel - 10/04/2012 07:36:11 PM 672 Views
All of which is entirely irrelevant. - 10/04/2012 07:38:29 PM 683 Views
Actually it states he will save a remnant of a remnant - 10/04/2012 07:47:04 PM 763 Views
Re: Actually it states he will save a remnant of a remnant - 11/04/2012 01:40:36 AM 744 Views
That is what I just said - 14/04/2012 01:41:56 AM 715 Views
What is important about that? - 14/04/2012 04:35:55 AM 691 Views
The importance is that the prophesy says that Rand - 14/04/2012 06:06:31 PM 858 Views
So what you're saying is... - 14/04/2012 09:45:36 PM 729 Views
That's exactly it - 14/04/2012 11:21:25 PM 808 Views
Good. - 15/04/2012 02:01:14 AM 827 Views
He sets it in motion, thus his actions lead to it - 15/04/2012 02:55:13 PM 695 Views
Yes, but in that case, he is responsible for everything, ever. - 15/04/2012 05:29:31 PM 794 Views
We are interpreting Prophesy here ... Direct v. Indirect actions are what we are discussing - 15/04/2012 07:21:29 PM 694 Views
Re: We are interpreting Prophesy here ... Direct v. Indirect actions are what we are discussing - 17/04/2012 04:18:32 AM 864 Views
Depends on how you look at the Prophesy - 18/04/2012 01:45:23 PM 646 Views
Of course, but the point of my example was... - 17/04/2012 06:08:09 PM 679 Views
Where are you getting this happens over thousands of years? - 18/04/2012 01:47:42 PM 679 Views
Because that was the important part of that post. - 18/04/2012 05:28:10 PM 802 Views
Don't know when this became about winning - 19/04/2012 02:08:16 AM 601 Views
Re: I never said it was. - 18/04/2012 12:37:23 AM 859 Views
Re: As far as I understand it, that future is impossible anyway. - 04/04/2012 07:16:13 AM 904 Views
Re: As far as I understand it, that future is impossible anyway. - 06/04/2012 10:33:00 PM 792 Views
Thank you for that analysis. *NM* - 17/04/2012 12:36:08 AM 402 Views

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