They abandoned their duties and are largely formed from wetland runaways. They are not Aiel philosophically nor genetically.
As for there still being Jenn at the time of the prophecy, I'd say that's completely irrelevant. If you disagree, you must explain how Rand is supposed to save something that has already died out. Will he master time travel?
As for there still being Jenn at the time of the prophecy, I'd say that's completely irrelevant. If you disagree, you must explain how Rand is supposed to save something that has already died out. Will he master time travel?
With the full memories of LTT, after the fashion he is a master of time travel.
Before and during TG Rand won't have time to bring back anything but the essentials, and no doubt his vision of the AOL is tempered with his experience of his life as Rand (in the sense that even with the memories of LTT, Rand isn't a die-hard admirer of everything and anything AOL. We could see this even in the way he dealt with Egwene, where it really transpired that LTT/Rand aren't without reservations about Aes Sedai, then and now). In other words, there are many things about the AOL Rand probably don't wish back.
But it might happen that Rand survives TG, or it might happen that LTT judges that world needs the talents of the Da'shain. We know he had a special relationship with them, and it's surely no coincidence Jordan has chosen not to reveal any of the specifics at this point. We don't know if the powers are strictly hereditary, if they can awaken without following the philosophy and many other questions of this kind. It may well be the Tuatha'an's blood is too diluted by now for them to have retained but a scrap of the Da'shain's talent, but this wouldn't be true of Aiel. It's not impossible however the Tuatha'an's Way of the Leaf is by and large still "pure", having barely changed since the days of the Da'shain (Rand would know for certain). Some Aiel prophecy say the Aiel mustn't fail the AS again or they will be slayed. So WO believes it could mean the Aiel will at some point serve the AS again. Some readers believe this was their prime motivation for "teaching" Aes Sedai, because they can't even consider serving women like the AS are now. They happen to shape one according to their moral standards, and she happens to be the Amyrlin Seat now, and to seek to tie the WO to the AS again. Egwene doesn't have any prophecy in mind doing this, but I doubt it hasn't occured to the WO yet that Egwene may have put in motion the chain of events that will lead to the Aiel serving the AS once more. She intends the WO to transmit their ethics, that may be closer to an aspect of AOL da'shain service than we know, at least it sounds to me quite credible that being their servants was traditional, perhaps even symbolic but most likely the Aiel had a far more important reason/purpose to live near Aes Sedai than housekeeping. There's likely some sort of symbiotic relationship we still know little about.
So basically, the key could be to reunite the Tuatha'an with the Aiel. The Tuatha'an would merge with the WO as the "spiritual class" - the Tuatha'an more like theologians, the WO more like priests (some of the titles of the Tinkers's leader are but a variation on Wise Ones...it's really possible their common origin is in the forgotten spiritual leaders of the Da'shain), but the talenst would only arise among the pure blood Aiel (that would be like RJ, I think... 2500 years of looking for "A Song" which is actually a Singing talent, only to find out when they finally learn the truth that the Tuatha'an themselves can't do anything with Singing because they've left the Aiel and their bloodlines havehas lost the talent), while the Aiel can't use it because they have abandonned the Way. The Wise Ones, incidentally, have a strong tradition of teaching... and one of their fields is an elaborate moral code they transmit to the warriors, part of which is a distortion of the Way of the Leaf. Making the Aiel return to their older code would be difficult because it changes so much their beliefs (the most radical difference is between being a da'shain versus being a gai'shain. Being da'shain isn't a way to regain your honor.) , but in many ways the Aiel have the best cultural outlook to be able to slip into the Way of the Leaf fast (quite a few of the beliefs and traditions are the same, for instance the Aiel's view of death is extremely close to the Tuatha'an's), especially that their "original sin" and atoning for it are notions solidly ingrained in their culture, it's just that they atone for the wrong sin and the wrong way. In the right time, and with the WO presenting this the right way (they're the first ones who need to be convinced...), Aiel could very well see it as a matter of ji'e'toh to re learn the Way, especially if Aviendha is convinced that not doing so and remaining warriors lead straight to their doom.
In any case, the prophecy can (typically) be interpreted in so many ways... It does appear to be about the Aiel who are warriors and it tells them they aren't real Aiel, merely call themselves that ("those who call themselves Aiel"
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The prophecy also tell us the Aiel's bonds to Rand can't be broken, and that he will destroy them.
The "remnant" could easily refer to the small percentage of the Aiel warriors Rand will manage to convince to return to their old ways, and it doesn't rule out the Tuatha'an having a role in this (even if they're not included in "those who call themselves Aiel"
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Another possibilty is that the Ogier Garderners, on the continent that wasn't as much affected by the Breaking, and who still serve society (they merely switched their alliance from the now corrupted AS to those who kept society in order and peace...) remember the Da'shain Aiel and Singing when the Tuatha'an do what Tuatha'an always end up doing and ask the first Garderner they see about "The Song". Not enough to teach anything, but enough to make the Tuatha'an realize they once were called the Da'shain Aiel.
(An interesting plot twist, an unlikely one, is that Tuon's Gardeners, between the Aiel prisoners and the Tuatha'an, figure out these must be two branches of the original da'shain Aiel, and that those da'shain Aiel once had useful talents for the ruler of a now starving world... and told Tuon. A few Seekers' jaws would drop to the floor if Tuon asked them if they can still Sing and what they remember of the Da'shain Aiel!)
The bottom line is that it's all way too clean... Rand/Aviendha have the Aiel, Tuon has the Tuatha'an. We have two groups of Ogier with no doubt complementary portions of knowledge due to their different histories, who we know will meet. With Merrilor, Rand fulfills one part of the Finns' riddle, bringing east and north together as One (notice the riddle don't say Rand had to bring it about, just that the world needed to get to this point). Tuon (not Rand) has brought the West and South together (ironically Rand has tried to make the wrong combo true, by uniting South and West together with his Arad Doman blind wild guess which was always more about following that riddle than accomplishing something really logical) A key to the LB according to the riddle is to bring these two groups/alliances - the one that will soon form at Merrilor and Tuon's - together "as One". When this happens, the pieces will at last be in the right place for the resolution of the whole Aiel/Tuatha'an scattered/separate story threads to merge as the final resolution for both groups. Likely for the Ogier as well, not to mention yet another important key point in Egwene's storyline. This will also reunite Mat/Tuon etc. The two groups becoming one sounds like a very important cornerstone (which makes me think it won't happen too early in AMOL... an event likely to occur some way into the LB only).
Aviendha, the columns, and the Seanchan
03/04/2012 04:29:31 PM
- 1940 Views
The entire point, I believe, is to give Avienda the opportunity to change that future
03/04/2012 05:13:48 PM
- 1225 Views
As far as I understand it, that future is impossible anyway.
03/04/2012 07:30:52 PM
- 959 Views
Depends on how one defines Aiel
04/04/2012 04:11:11 AM
- 915 Views
There are more than there were before.
04/04/2012 07:03:27 AM
- 927 Views
But when the prophesy was made there many followers
04/04/2012 10:10:54 AM
- 844 Views
The Tuatha'an are not Aiel.
04/04/2012 06:28:47 PM
- 918 Views
Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel.
05/04/2012 01:41:23 AM
- 1066 Views
Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel.
05/04/2012 07:39:04 AM
- 965 Views
Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel.
05/04/2012 02:14:37 PM
- 1161 Views
Yes, I was thinking of the Aiel's suicidal traditions as well.
05/04/2012 06:24:56 PM
- 832 Views
Re: Yes, I was thinking of the Aiel's suicidal traditions as well.
06/04/2012 12:20:31 AM
- 980 Views
Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel.
06/04/2012 10:38:24 PM
- 1114 Views
Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel.
07/04/2012 06:27:27 AM
- 827 Views
Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel.
07/04/2012 07:23:03 PM
- 786 Views
So what you're saying...
07/04/2012 10:07:59 PM
- 731 Views
What I am saying is that it's not a "pure bloodline" that makes one an Aiel
08/04/2012 12:16:10 AM
- 824 Views
I never said it was.
08/04/2012 12:43:26 AM
- 899 Views
Actually you did In your above post you speak of the Tinkers as not Aiel because they have been
08/04/2012 06:09:01 AM
- 838 Views
No...
08/04/2012 07:12:22 AM
- 942 Views
You have no evidence that the Tuath'an are mostly comprised of runaways etc
08/04/2012 05:16:54 PM
- 916 Views
Re: You have no evidence that the Tuath'an are mostly comprised of runaways etc
08/04/2012 06:43:27 PM
- 942 Views
Re: You have no evidence that the Tuath'an are mostly comprised of runaways etc
08/04/2012 07:52:10 PM
- 733 Views
Red hair is double recessive ... Doesn't take much to eliminate it from the gene pool. There could
08/04/2012 11:22:36 PM
- 876 Views
You are consistently making the same mistake.
09/04/2012 02:45:46 AM
- 723 Views
They are the same thing. The remnant of a remnant are Aiel
10/04/2012 05:04:55 AM
- 867 Views
No. They are not.
10/04/2012 05:42:29 AM
- 765 Views
Never said the remnant of the remnant was the whole of the Aiel
10/04/2012 05:45:47 PM
- 783 Views
You said that redefining the Aiel would allow Aviendha's vision to be possible.
10/04/2012 06:53:51 PM
- 950 Views
No , I said there were many ways to interpret the statement based on how one defines Aiel
10/04/2012 07:36:11 PM
- 731 Views
All of which is entirely irrelevant.
10/04/2012 07:38:29 PM
- 752 Views
Actually it states he will save a remnant of a remnant
10/04/2012 07:47:04 PM
- 818 Views
Re: Actually it states he will save a remnant of a remnant
11/04/2012 01:40:36 AM
- 801 Views
That is what I just said
14/04/2012 01:41:56 AM
- 766 Views
What is important about that?
14/04/2012 04:35:55 AM
- 739 Views
The importance is that the prophesy says that Rand
14/04/2012 06:06:31 PM
- 912 Views
So what you're saying is...
14/04/2012 09:45:36 PM
- 789 Views
That's exactly it
14/04/2012 11:21:25 PM
- 860 Views
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Good.
15/04/2012 02:01:14 AM
- 882 Views
He sets it in motion, thus his actions lead to it
15/04/2012 02:55:13 PM
- 745 Views
Yes, but in that case, he is responsible for everything, ever.
15/04/2012 05:29:31 PM
- 849 Views
We are interpreting Prophesy here ... Direct v. Indirect actions are what we are discussing
15/04/2012 07:21:29 PM
- 742 Views
Re: We are interpreting Prophesy here ... Direct v. Indirect actions are what we are discussing
17/04/2012 04:18:32 AM
- 934 Views
Of course, but the point of my example was...
17/04/2012 06:08:09 PM
- 733 Views
Where are you getting this happens over thousands of years?
18/04/2012 01:47:42 PM
- 734 Views