They got largely table scraps from Moghedien - only a few really useful tricks (if anything, Moghedien planted in Egwene and co. the notion that the AOL knowledge of the OP wasn't all that after all), and Asmodean was a really poor teacher who's managed to hold most of his knowledge from Rand, with the obvious blessing of Lanfear, who was never seen around to admonish Asmodean to teach Rand "the real stuff" (nor there to link with them to speed this all up!). For the most part, Asmodean wasn't there to more than make sure Rand self-taught channelling wouldn't kill him, and the real purpose of his presence for Lanfear was the threat it represented that he would give a real AOL training to Rand, a threat which she peddled to Rahvin, Sammael and Graendal, to go along a "plan" of hers that kept them away from Rand for the time being, until she managed to bring Rand to her side and she could betray and eliminate the four of them. In the meantime, she peddled the threat of the same alliance of Chosen to Rand, without revealing that she was involved and even behind it, of course! In turn, that "alliance" around Lanfear, and the fact Rand had Asmodean and Callandor, would make the other alliance (Semirhage, Demandred and Mesaana) thread more warily, knowing they might clash with four Chosen and Rand had become an unknown quantity.

The first thing Graendal did was remove the threat Asmodean teaching Rand represented, then wisely she kept the fact secret. The lingering doubt Asmodean may not be really dead was much too useful for her in her attempts to manipulate Sammael into disobeying the DO and attacking Rand (it sounds rather obvious to me that Sammael's doubts made him send the gholam to kill the only "outsider" Rand seems to have secret meetings with, this Herid Fel hidden in this place where Rand had assembled scholars to invent weapons... Sammael thought Fel could be Asmodean)

In any case, Rand now holds all the AOL knowledge of LTT, but the Aes Sedai and Asha'man alike are a very far cry from the AOL training standards.

What's far more important is that key female channelers like Nynaeve, Egwene, Elayne now perceive themselves as far more knowledgeable than they are, and aren't crippled anymore by the notion of facing the Forsaken, and that confidence they gain is very important. You might say they don't suffer anymore from the sort of complexes that have always crippled Moghedien.




They still are all that and more. RJ/BS showed us Moridin has this vaults with his collection of AOL objects. It's unlikely only dreamspikes is the only device he'll put to use during TG.

Similarly, prior to TOM the Light's collection was largely useless, because aside from Aviendha's new talent to somewhat guess at the purpose of OP objects and the limited success of some AS's studies, they didn't know how most of these objects could and should be used. Rand's epiphany now places them on the same footing as the Shadow (though now it's an open question if the WT vaults/the Stone/the Cairhien-Rhuidean stockpile, Elayne's collection hold anything as remotely as interesting as what Ishamael has chosen to collect over the centuries. Rand will know, if he has the time to sort them out. If Rand starts doing that sort of thing as walking through the WT vaults, the Brown Ajah might just die of collective excitement).



Again, it's largely perception. The WO are good. Perhaps they're nearly as good as AOLers, actually. We don't know for sure. It's probable the WO have discovered most of the key-features of TAR known to AOLers. It sounds like some of the tricks used by Lanfear/Moghedien they don't know about (or its in areas they consider evil and refuse to study or experiment with).

But we haven't really seen what Moghedien and Lanfear are truly capable of in TAR. Jordan has held back Lanfear almost as much as he held back Demandred. Next year we'll know if he held back these two to "unleash them" during TG.

But knowledge isn't all. In the case of TAR, it's even to an extent secondary to raw talent and strength of will. Mesaana no doubt knew vastly more about TAR and fighting opponents there than Egwene. But Egwene was sharper, and made better use of her limited knowledge. Egwene also managed to escape one of Moghedien's traps without even realizing she was caught in one...



That's a perception, and perceiving it that way has built the confidence of the heroes, but at the same time they've gone through "sobering" experiences. Egwene is well aware that Lanfear is a force to reckon with. Nynaeve is well aware that Moghedien remains very dangerous, and the whole experience with Semirhage was both a confidence booster, followed by a huge lesson of humility...



This is where I think you're exagerating.

Among the core of the protagonists, the terror the Forsaken inspire is pretty much ruined. In her defeat of Mesaana, Egwene probably has solidified her reputation with the Sisters (not to mention they might take her TAR/Dreaming talents more seriously from now on). Nynaeve has long held the view Forsaken are just humans and despicable, and she has practical experience of it. Rand now has the most balanced views of the Forsaken any character has. He really knows what he's facing, their limits and their dangers too.

The Last Battle will reduce some, but not quite all, of the weaknesses that plagued the Forsaken.

A very great deal of what made them so formidable in the AOL is just gone in the Third Age. A lot of the weight Ishamael carried owed to his fame and the influence of the ideas of theories of Elan Morin. We can only guess how many AS the fact this man, this expert of the Pattern, now advocated joining the Shadow has convinced to join the Forsaken. But in the third Age, Ishamael/Moridin was reduced to theatrical tricks and terror to impress very limited forces of DF to obey and he couldn't even convince uneducated farmboys to join Shai'tan... As an intellectual force, Moridin/Ishamael has been reduced to a non entity, his theories long discredited and forgotten and surviving only in the secret propaganda meant for those who joined the Shadow. Mesaana used to head a whole indoctrination system (which logically probably taught the concepts of Ishamael...), no doubt relying on thousands of "educators" following her methods and orders. But now she had no access to the masses, reduced to lead in the shadows a small task force of BA/DF and play games destroying a single institution, without anyone discovering too early what she was doing. Semirhage built her reputation on sheer terrorism, committing personal atrocities and accomplishing very visible coups. We've learned she terrorized even the highest ranks of the Shadow. And now, Semirhage was reduced to acting in secret. The AS could never be told how she destroyed Cabriana Mecandes, and Semirhage was reduced to boasting to an hidden pawn alone the terror act she did at the Court of the Nine Moons. And day-to-day, she had to inspire respect and a bit of fear in a teenage girl she meant to depend on her eventually and who for some unknown reason she wasn't allowed to simply turn to the Shadow by breaking her, as she used to do to several key figures in the AOL. In the WOS, her carnage in Seanchan would have been headline news, making the terror Semirhage inspired grow. She's like a terrorist without mass media and whose actions must remain secret... not very effective. Demandred used to be a very famous, very respected man and appears to have been LTT's second through the first phase of the WOS. His very betrayal at a point where the War wasn't going well for LTT would have been a massive blow to the Light, in morale and in loss of his skills. At the same time, he was weakening the Light even more, and he was strenghtening the Shadow. His reputation made in the Light probably gained him instantly many followers in the Shadow and must have played massively in his rapid rise to the top of the Forsaken, and securing an alliance with the old-guard Chosen who inspired the most fear even among the Shadow (Semirhage) and the woman who was shaping the up-and-coming figures of the Shadow (Mesaana) probably solidified this reputation even more. Barid Bel Medar's fame alone would have greatly contributed to the fears Demandred inspired as a general for the Shadow, the forces of the Light discouraged and intimidated of facing this man who knew the Light's strategies and weaknesses like no other did and who had contributed so much to the War effort. Nowadays he's a complete nobody, by and large reduced to a figure of tales to frighten children without any of his accomplishements before and during the war remembered by anyone but for scraps in books known only to a very limited number of scholars. Demandred is still formidable for his skills, but aside from Rand (and his fans among the readers) his arrival on the battlefield at last isn't going to cause anywhere like the commotion and blow to morale his betrayal was in the AOL. He now starts as this anonymous military genius whose sole claim to fame is being one of the Forsaken, which among the leaders of the Light doesn't count for much anymore... and some of his pawns like Mazrim Taim inspire more practical terror than him - and ironically the great betrayal of the Black Tower, seemingly the most important in the LB, very likely will increase the infamy of Taim and few will ever know Demandred engineered it all (if he did, but I take it as a given). Worse in Demandred's eyes probably, it won't really be a blow to Rand, who suspects it and has been forewarned it would come by Logain. So Mat will have to match Demandred's military genius, but he won't have to face that, aggrandized by the reputation that surrounded Demandred in the WOS and that he no longer has at all.

It's basically the same story for all the Chosen... In the AOL they were feared for the good reasons. They were ruthless, they were committing publicized atrocities largely unknown in that Age. Their reputation had grown (in a conditionned society where reputation and honor for accomplishments was everything... and it's in that culture that people tought it a good idea to humiliate those individuals with scorn names instead of the coveted honorifics, an idea the Shadow turned to its advantage by embracing the scorn names and making them infamous...in the Third Age they wisely barely publicized victories against the Chosen, and Egwene sent the BA to anonymous mass executions, their names to be forgotten) largely because they were rising among the ranks of other infamous Forsaken, the worst of the worst, the most inhuman, the most depraved, the most unforgiving, the most hungry for power. They're all individuals who were ambitious and ruthless with their rivals and they lead in a system where any means were accepted to rise. But it was a system, with them on top and masses of lower standing Forsaken to serve them, and a mass of DF underneath those, and the Shadowspawn at the bottom of that food chain. They didn't have time to stay at the top, and they didn't survive there, by doing everything themselves... of course they relied massively on those who served them...

Some of them like Aginor, Semirhage, Mesaana, Graendal, Demandred, are ill-adapted to the current age. For Aginor it's the most simple: he relied on technologies that are out of reach to him now. Mesaana's real talents all supposed the Shadow made advances and controlled territories. It's when her value as a propagandist and manager arose. It's only then she practiced her strategy of leaving as little possible in culture/knowledge/technology standing (not for nothing SH commented she was always wasteful). Several Forsaken including Semirhage, Lanfear, Graendal relied on their reputation spreading. I suspect Lanfear and Semirhage especially were highly mediatic figures, always careful that their actions attracted maximum attention and aggrandized their reputation and infamy even more (and ironically, I've long wondered how much Lanfear owed her fame to the fact she was "the Forsaken who once dated LTT".

Now in the Third Age they were these monsters from fairytales, very vague monsters because barely attached to quantifiable horrors anymore, their reputation tied to as vague a perception of the wonders of the AOL, and the Breaking itself has overshadowed the WOS a lot. The most concrete fears they inspired was among Aes Sedai, who had this strong perception that their strength was much diminished and for whom the wonders of the AOL were a bit more concrete and far more intimidating than to the average Joes. And this "Forsaken effect" is seriously undermined now, between Egwene's face-off with Mesaana, Moiraine's legend for facing Be'lal and Lanfear, and eventually Cadsuane's reputation for breaking Semirhage, and Nynaeve's capturing Moghedien, if she ever admits to that. The confidence of the AS to face the Forsaken is much, much greater now. The Shadow (through the BA - Moria - and propaganda) made efforts to rekindle fear of the Chosen (by turning the victory of the Light that was the Cleansing into this story that the Forsaken had shown their real power... LOL! They all ran, a few with their tail between their legs) but the truth spread eventually.

It was rather easy to destroy their reputation, when people remember only that Semirhage is horrific, but nothing of what made her concretely frightening, when most of what people remembers of Lanfear was that she once was loved by LTT. For most folk, they were very vague figures of terror, and the situation didn't let them grow back into real flesh-and-blood monsters they were to AOLers. In the AOL, they were much like Bin Laden, Hitler, Staline, key Nazi figures. Frigthening, horrifying humans. They passed into legend, where they became these superhumans demons and what not. It's not a status they could live up to, because they never were anything like "gods", and as humans they didn't have the opportunities to shine the WOS gave them. and for several of them they were building reputations established before they joined the Shadow.. famous scientists, politicians, philosopher etc.

By and large, this is due to the fact the Chosen were forced to lead a war of attrition years before the LB, in which declaring themselves for who they were could mean doom. Their own reputation played against them rather than for them. They used to be infamous leaders of a force that amounted to up to 50% of the population (among Aes Sedai anyway, we never got the number for non-channelers but it's probably closer to that than to the third age percentage of DF) Each of those Forsaken used to have massive forces behind them- armies or followers or both - and no doubt they all put their followers to very good use to increase their power and reputation, all part of the Shadow's system. They were reduced to 13. Among those, only three of them survive who used to collaborate together, otherwise they are an assemblage of archenemies, some of the most bitter rivals among the Shadow. All they can lead until the LB are hidden pawns of extremely dubious skills, dedication and loyalty. Quite a few of them tried too hard to get back their old glory and power, exposing themselves, forgetting they no longer had 50% of the world behind them. They are humans, and always were humans. Their survival and fame in the WOS owed massively to the global strength of the Shadow. Sammael didn't have the AOL armies with which he could challenge LTT. He was largely on his own, manipulating an army that would abandon him if they knew who and what he was (and did). It all came down to duels.. against Be'lal, against Sammael, and Rahvin, and Asmodean, and Lanfear and Graendal, and Semirhage and Mesaana. In the end, they all died alone, abandonned by their pawns, abandonned by the system. Duels are the trickiest thing... you never count on the "untrained AS" in your back knowing a lost weave or daring to plain push you into a ter'angreal, or that AS hidden that distract you at the wrong moment, or that betrayal from the DO, or Moridin...

The Shadow always had a fatal disadvantage: it is lead by a circle of formidable individuals, who for the most part aren't good leaders and just can't work together. It's not people who can pool their resources and plan together. Most of their individual advantages, and those are great, were wasted because they never worked as a team. The three who did in a limited extent, the ones who did stay hidden, survived the longest. Cadsuane broke Semirhage by showing she wasn't much more than her reputation. Egwene would have fallen against Mesaana without allies, and Mesaana fell because in the end she faced Egwene alone.

To an extent, the LB will change that. Demandred will have armies and followers to face the Light. It's more a matter of how long still he will resists claiming fame and respect for his accomplishements. He has done quite wonderfully at that so far, but no doubt it's in the anticipation that the moment will come for him to reap the big rewards facing and defeating Rand. How long will he be satified during TG with letting the names of his field generals and pawns like Taim reap all the infamy and "respect" of their foes, while the real genius behind them remains anonymous? I suspect Demandred's demise will come only when he finally places himself in the spotlight - as long as he leads the Shadow from the shadows, he'll stay victorious, but my hunch is that he will reach the point where he's not satisfied with anonymous successes or his seconds reaping all his glory - and will make the mistake of doing something to get the name Demandred famous again... and this might come sooner if Rand decides to leave Demandred to Mat, refuses to lead battles against him, denies Demandred's wish for a military face-off between them (it sounds like it could be Rand's intention.. he did say he wouldn't lead the war...). Facing a general who can't channel might amuse Demandred a while, but his amusement might turn to anger and perceived insult and he may not resist finishing Mat himself once Mat has one solid victory against his forces, especially if he thinks removing Mat might force Rand to lead himself.

We'll see what the other Chosen who've survived can do once the Shadow is out in the open and they're free to try to re establish their reputation of terror. Cyndane and Moghedien aren't very likely to be allowed to do any such thing and will remain Moridin's servants. Moridin is likely to remain a figure known to the Shadow and a nobody in the Light. His "public days" are long over - for the most part he didn't even bother spreading his name and status very far among the Shadow. Moridin has long stopped to care, in the third Age he's even erased his identity, content to let his pawns believe he was the DO.

Demandred would be much better avoiding the temptation of regaining any of his fame, and keep his ego in check. The best Graendal can hope for is a mindtrap, but I get the feeling if we see her again it will be a SH's plaything and nothing more, just like it's doubtful the DO brings back Aginor a second time when he proved inept and useless twice. As for Semirhage, the DO is all too aware she's lost her greatest asset when Cadsuane broke her. It sounds more likely the DO will decide to make do for the LB with the "fittest" who survived. It's largely the time for Moridin and Demandred to play their roles, the others are kind of demoted.