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Limits of resurrection... fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 29/02/2012 12:32:43 AM


Well, it didn't sound that way.

Then I don't know how to help you.


What he said concerned mostly the efforts to secure a soul (which isn't an issue if this was done at SG) and that the DO wouldn't expand those just for anyone. RJ never said the act of transmigration itself is difficult to the DO, he never made any comment on that.</ quote>
I think you're referring to the wrong quote. This is the one I mean:

Week 3 Question: There are many theories that attempt to create a connection of time duration to the transmigration of the dead Forsaken. Are there time and/or power constraints on the Dark One's ability to transmigrate souls?

Robert Jordan Answers: There are definitely time constraints on the Dark One's power to transmigrate a soul. The soul doesn't have to be secured immediately - that is, the Dark One doesn't have to be ready to snatch the soul at the instant of death - but the longer that passes after the death, the less chance that the Dark One will be able to secure the soul. Someone who has been killed with balefire in actuality died before the apparent time of his or her death, and thus the window of opportunity for the Dark One to secure that soul for transmigration is gone before the Dark One can know that the soul must be secured unless the amount of balefire used is very small. Remember that the more balefire is used, the further back the target's thread is burned out of the pattern.

After the soul is secured, then a suitable body must be acquired and stripped of the (former) owner's memory and soul to make way for the favored one. By the way, what constitutes a suitable body from the Dark One's perspective is not that of the recipient. Certainly Aginor would never have chosen to be reincarnated in his, shall we say, less than imposing body, nor would the womanizing Balthamel have chosen to be reincarnated as a beautiful woman. It was only chance that Moridin ended up in a body that is young, fairly good looking and physically imposing. Those things simply don't matter to the Dark One. But the body has to be basically healthy and sound, and neither too young nor too old. After all, the Dark One wants his servants to be effective, and a body that meets those basic requirements is more desirable than one that doesn't. Since there is no stockpile of such bodies, the only way for someone to die and immediately be reincarnated would be a matter of pure chance. That is, the death occurred when a suitable body was on hand for some other reason.

There are a few other limits and constraints, but I won't go into them here, since I may want to use them in the books, and I would rather they come as a surprise if I do.</ quote>
I'm ignoring the last part about there being other restrictions he wants to use later (this instance clearly fits the bill for that). But for the "punishment by bimbo" scenario you outlined, the Dark One either held out for some time in the hope that a suitable bimbo body would appear, or such a body was luckily available when he had to resurrect her. What I'm questioning is your ascribing of deep motive to the Dark Ones actions here. But it doesn't fit, both because the logistics present a problem, as RJ said, but also because what you're saying doesn't add up:

1) you say he remade her as a girlish bimbo, but that doesn't seem to be easy, per RJ.
2) you say she is forced to be a servant in livery, and this its insulting to her.

But the important part to remember is that these punishments won't have their full effect on a personality like Lanfear's until it is made public that she was Lanfear. Her name, her beauty, her strength, her clothes... all these matter to her as they can be used to over awe others. To strip her of her pride, the DO would have made clear to the other Forsaken that she has been divested of these things as punishment. Instead, her new name is an inside joke only, her lack of her old strength meaningless since no one knows she once possessed it, and her being made a slave is a secret, which only makes it an object lesson in private. To really bring down Lanfear, he would have made it known she was now a weakened bimbo slave. This quote from RJ makes this clearer:

The Dark One doesn't care about his minions sufficiently to invest much time in their punishment except as it serves to correct their behavior or as object lesson to others, nor is there much in the way of gradation. Simple failure and outright betrayal might be punished equally, or one might result in death and the other in becoming an object lesson or in something else. ( The mindtrap, by the way, could be called an object lesson only to the one so trapped; remember, none of the Forsaken know who is mindtrapped except Moridin and those who are trapped.) The decision, death or object lesson or something else, normally would be simply a matter of whether or not he believed there was any point to an object lesson and/or whether or not he felt there was really any further use in the individual. Or, for that matter, made for reasons unknowable to a human mind. Remember, the Dark One is NOT human and thinking of him in human terms just doesn't work.


Given how " channeler economics" drive the decision so strongly, I find it really hard to believe he had Lanfear killed and resurrected for a useless private lesson that won't even prevent betrayal by another of the Chosen. Far more likely he was forced to do it.
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What did happen to Lanfear? - 23/02/2012 10:54:19 AM 2233 Views
I thought Moiraine saw Moridin or somebody in there looking for Lanfear? - 23/02/2012 01:00:25 PM 1132 Views
Re: I thought Moiraine saw Moridin or somebody in there looking for Lanfear? - 23/02/2012 02:14:05 PM 1017 Views
do souls remain the same strength with each reincarnation though? - 23/02/2012 05:45:40 PM 802 Views
We can only theorize - 24/02/2012 08:14:49 AM 880 Views
The Forsaken aren't a great parameter to judge from - 24/02/2012 04:10:35 PM 723 Views
Without the Forsaken its a pointless subject - 24/02/2012 04:23:57 PM 834 Views
not all things need to be explained. - 27/02/2012 04:07:21 AM 652 Views
Sanderson doesn't think this is the case - 26/02/2012 12:47:26 AM 814 Views
I don't think Lanfear died in Finnland - 27/02/2012 02:02:31 AM 1228 Views
I assume this was meant to be a response to Sidious' original post *NM* - 27/02/2012 02:18:09 AM 340 Views
All this could be true and could still have died at Finnland... - 27/02/2012 04:40:50 AM 652 Views
Re: All this could be true and could still have died at Finnland... - 28/02/2012 04:46:41 AM 720 Views
Why so? - 28/02/2012 06:33:25 AM 663 Views
I pretty much agree - 28/02/2012 07:15:26 AM 859 Views
WHen and where Lanfears original body died doesn't mean much to me - 28/02/2012 02:01:00 PM 618 Views
Re: WHen and where Lanfears original body died doesn't mean much to me - 28/02/2012 05:40:21 PM 589 Views
Perhaps ... But doesn't explain what they get out of killing her ... They have proven to be crafty - 28/02/2012 07:17:21 PM 645 Views
Well... - 28/02/2012 08:13:03 PM 725 Views
then why even negotiate with Moridin? - 28/02/2012 09:24:38 PM 758 Views
Re: Why so? - 28/02/2012 07:01:38 PM 772 Views
Not even Moraine thinks the Finns killed Lanfear - 28/02/2012 09:17:30 PM 1117 Views
Limits of resurrection... - 29/02/2012 12:32:43 AM 913 Views
Pretty sure it was Slayer - 23/02/2012 04:10:29 PM 849 Views
He's still a minion, and would have been acting on the Shadow's behalf - 23/02/2012 04:56:21 PM 723 Views
I corrected you. Not Moridin. It was Slayer. - 24/02/2012 08:07:17 AM 778 Views
And you know this, how? - 24/02/2012 08:43:38 AM 735 Views
Really? Its absolutely obvious that it was slayer. - 10/05/2012 04:16:43 PM 1104 Views
Maybe they can only drain a fixed amount - and did so to both women equally... - 24/02/2012 08:32:56 PM 852 Views
Ahh, Shannow... - 25/02/2012 03:51:10 AM 786 Views
I laughed too *NM* - 25/02/2012 06:54:15 AM 346 Views
Hilarious even for you - 26/02/2012 12:28:28 AM 720 Views
Exactly! *NM* - 27/02/2012 12:19:57 AM 416 Views
Seems convoluted to me - 26/02/2012 12:44:18 AM 711 Views
his sanity? *NM* - 28/02/2012 06:07:25 PM 463 Views
HA! Sanity is overrated *NM* - 28/02/2012 07:21:01 PM 338 Views
I wonder if he traded a taste of the True Power? - 29/02/2012 12:26:56 AM 617 Views
Now that is an interesting theory! - 29/02/2012 05:42:22 AM 610 Views
Maybe they can use the TP - 29/02/2012 02:43:07 PM 793 Views
Considering how they feel about anything dealing with the shadow, - 29/02/2012 03:03:55 PM 587 Views
Why not? I believe RJ basically said they are so different from humans that we could not define - 01/03/2012 04:54:40 AM 699 Views
Yet Light vs. Shadow is? - 01/03/2012 05:17:14 AM 680 Views
That could boil down to prophesy v. Prophesy - 01/03/2012 05:33:52 AM 695 Views
LOVE IT ... Great thoughts! *NM* - 01/03/2012 04:52:38 AM 287 Views
The foxhead... - 01/03/2012 05:19:13 AM 683 Views
Yes, but that doesn't mean an Aes Sedai made it. - 01/03/2012 04:20:10 PM 655 Views
My point was... - 01/03/2012 05:34:34 PM 540 Views
What makes you think so? - 01/03/2012 06:45:42 PM 633 Views
Re: What makes you think so? - 01/03/2012 11:22:06 PM 568 Views
Re: What makes you think so? - 02/03/2012 12:57:13 AM 601 Views
It depends.... - 08/03/2012 09:54:45 PM 695 Views

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