It has nothing to do with a specific system of morality, but basic natural law.
Cannoli Send a noteboard - 19/02/2012 11:26:13 PM
text of the books. I am pointing out that you have added your personal beliefs onto a fictional setting where those beliefs make no sense. If Elayne was a modern day Earth leader I would agree with you, but the fact is she's not, she is a ruler in a world where they have drastically different rules and systems in place. Elayne is trying to be a responsible ruler by following those systems, but is also doing her best to be innovative in managing the messes she got handed by outside sources.
Human nature, and right and wrong do not change.1. Right or wrong the AS swing a big political stick. Bitching about it is useless, it exists and thus the people of WoT recognize it (even if they don't always love it). The Catholic Church in our own world had similar influence for centuries, and for many of the same reasons.
And I recognized that and acknowledged it. But whether or not their power is real or a bluff, it is still wrong.2. Right or wrong Elayne is an AS and is supporting the power of the Tower. This support will benefit her people for as long as the Tower maintains its influence (much like the Borgia or Hapsburg families).
Like when they forced her mother to stop defending her own subjects?She needs to consider how to balance her ties to the Tower and her duty to her people. You rightly point out that she has changed her tune since gaining the Shawl and that is suspect... It bugs me too that her personal loyalty to the father of her children has seemingly vanished ... We do not see this from Rands other lovers.
3. Right or wrong the alliance with the Kin puts her in a precarious position with the Tower as organizing groups of channelers is one of the first thing the Tower forbid upon formation.
Right. So the hell with the Tower, or any group that would do such a thing.3. Right or wrong the alliance with the Kin puts her in a precarious position with the Tower as organizing groups of channelers is one of the first thing the Tower forbid upon formation.
However, she is aware of Egwene's plans to bring the Kin into the WT service on some level so her plan to keep them in one place won't be difficult to sell to Egwene as long as the Tower gets some benefit from their service agreement as well.
Yeah, so. I am not criticizing Elayne for doing something that will bring the Tower's wrath down on her. I fully approve of her doings with the Kin, and also expect it to be a kind of metaphorical Frankenstein's monster that will slip the limits originally envisioned for it. 4. Elayne ensured that all taxes collected in the Two Rivers are to be controlled by the Steward of the Two Rivers FOR the Two Rivers. She explicitly states this in the text. The whole scene is designed to legitimize Perrin in a world where democratic process doesn't truly exist. Wonderful that the people of the Two Rivers elected him Lord, but given the politics of the WoT world that is never going to be enough.
He didn't need anything else. There was no one else remotely concerned with his legitimacy, so the only threat she is protecting him from is one she herself creates. You are the one who is misapplying real world practices. The moral right of people to self-government is a natural constant. The people chose Perrin as their leader and thus he has the moral right. It has nothing to do with democracy or elections, which are just a method of codifying that natural right. These things are true and valid for the same reason that the Seanchan are wrong to keep slaves or that rapists and murderers and thieves are just as wrong in WoT as they are in the real world. This is not about a particular system of government, but about the morals of power. Elayne has no more right or organize or authorize anything to do with the Two Rivers than Rand had to give her the Lion Throne. And her doing the former after insisting on the negation of the latter makes her a hypocrite. To remain unchallenged as a Lord he needed the Queens Blessing. Now no foreign power can refuse his rights or invade his territory without bringing the power of Andor against them.
Because of all the foreign invasions the Two Rivers had to fear? Their only other neighboring nation is ruled by Perrin's vassal, who escaped the worst experience of her life thanks to Two Rivers bowmen fighting a distraction to enable her rescue (and impressing officers of the finest military in the world). As for the fate of anyone who tried invading the Two Rivers, look up the battles of Agincourt or Crecy sometime. Before gunpowder, the long bow was the most deadly military weapon in the world and according to the books, the material for those bows only grows in the Two Rivers. May not mean much since the most likely invaders (Seanchan) won't give a rats ass about his pedigree anyway, but 50 years ago it would have been meaningful. As with most things in WoT, communication and adaptation seem to lack so Elayne falls back on the established systems rules to, legitimize Rand and Perrin and create a strong alliance with both Ghealdan and Saldea ... All of these things serve to strengthen Andor and help her ensure her people's safety from the Seanchan and the Shadow.
Which is the only reason I gave the whole matter as little attention as I did. The deal that was arranged was not wrong or bad, what I had a problem with was her hypocritically claiming the same prerogative for the Two Rivers that she denied Rand for Andor, despite his doing far more to deserve it for Andor than she ever did anything for the Two Rivers. 5. Your grasp on their economic realities is a farce. Cairhein is a ruin financially, most of the land has lain fallow for more than 20 years thanks to the Aiel War and the ongoing civil war and political maneuvering Cairhienin leadership has been unknown for long enough that without Elayne the nation would likely collapse into something closer to Altara or Murrandy. Cairhein collapsing will be bad for Andor as they have been the closest and likely major trading partner for the last 1,000 years. An influx of trade from all over the world will shore up the economies of both Andor and Cairhein.
Forget all this yammering about trade, because Andor AND Cairhien were doing just fine with trade without any of her switching up Houses, and it has not yet been proven that Andor will benefit from Sea Folk trade or that they needed the enclave to get that benefit. Elayne is already planning to tax anything that leaves the enclave, which will retard trade. You need some specifics about how trade is going to help. Even if I stipulate that her deals with the Sea Folk and the worst nobles were necessary to prevent the scenario you offer of Cairhien going bankrupt, than her duty as the monarch of Andor is to NOT go grabbing another throne and crown, which will divert her attention from Andor AND run the risk of dragging the country to which she owes her first duty into ruin. So thanks. All you have done is give me another grievance to lay at her feet if your analysis of the situation in Cairhien is correct.6. The vast majority of the land in WoT is a wilderness ... Remember when Nynaeve, Egwene and Elayne hopped off a boat on the way to Tear and were several hours or more from human habitation... RIGHT ON THE RIVER?
IN CAIRHIEN, NOT ANDOR, WHERE ELAYNE HAS TO GET THE LAND FROM?? And even if she finds an uninhabited parcel to pass along, everything I said about diverting trade from her supporters in Aringail still holds true. Or how about when Rand and Mat spent weeks traveling FROM A RIVER to Caemlyn with very little in the way of human habitation?
No, I don't remember that, because IT NEVER HAPPENED. By the river, they were in ONE OF THE LARGEST TOWNS IN ANDOR. And they traveled the entire way along a ROAD through populated areas, only sleeping under hedges because they could not afford inns. Once they realized they could perform for their supper, they stayed in inns and farmhouses all the time. Very doubtful anyone will get displaced for the Seafolk enclave to be built. Andor and Cairhein need the influx of new trade the Sea Folk will bring by having permanent enclave of the SF.
Prove it. And while the Kin can help some transportation needs, expecting them to be the main resource for moving goods is unrealistic and flies in the face of how commerce is conducted in WoT so even if they could manage all of it, it will take time for the rest of the world to figure out the nuances of the process since places like Saldae or Tear have no complimentary system. Channelers are still a very scarce resource, and Even Rand needed to ship grain via the SF.
I was talking about technology, not channeling! Pull your head out of the Aes Sedai's collective asses, and read what I said about steam transport. The Academy of Cairhien has the means to make steam-powered riverboats, and overland steampower is already a functioning concern, cutting the RIVER between Cairhien and Tear entirely out of the equation. I haven't done the math, but the speed of the steam wagons might actually match or surpass that of oar-, pole- and sail-propelled riverboats. Once they think to attach a steam engine to the paddle wheel that has already been invented, the Sea Folk are going to be obsolete on the rivers. Rant all you like, but the WoT world doesn't revolve around your moral code,
But it does run off the moral code by which we condemn the Children of the Light for using torture and the Seanchan for having slaves. they don't have a democratic process and they are a society in failure that falls back on established precedent because they tend to live in fear, and change makes people more afraid.
Rule by a queen is change for the Two Rivers. And I find it ironic that you are mentioning this lack of democracy in defense of the rule of a queen who needed to win an election.
Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
Bad Elayne! No biscuit!
18/02/2012 10:13:54 PM
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You are assigning your 21st century view onto people with totally different circumstances
18/02/2012 11:33:56 PM
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You are assigning your knee-jerk assumptions to my post
19/02/2012 03:29:02 AM
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As per usual you choose to assume the people of WoT have your belief system when you comment on the
19/02/2012 05:31:57 PM
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It has nothing to do with a specific system of morality, but basic natural law.
19/02/2012 11:26:13 PM
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Where were Mat and Rand when they found Domon? In a wilderness along the RIVER.
20/02/2012 12:40:38 AM
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Re: Where were Mat and Rand when they found Domon? In a wilderness along the RIVER.
22/02/2012 01:10:54 AM
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Just read the books. Including the BWB ... It spells it out for those who care to read.
22/02/2012 02:48:45 AM
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The Queen of Andor lost all authority over the Two Rivers when she failed to protect it. *NM*
25/03/2012 02:53:23 PM
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Which is why they elected their own lord
25/03/2012 06:25:31 PM
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Yes, absolutely. I remember saying this back when I first read the book.
18/02/2012 11:44:19 PM
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Re: Yes, absolutely. I remember saying this back when I first read the book.
20/02/2012 03:11:14 AM
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Re: Yes, absolutely. I remember saying this back when I first read the book.
20/02/2012 06:22:21 AM
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Re: Yes, absolutely. I remember saying this back when I first read the book.
22/02/2012 06:23:36 PM
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Re: Yes, absolutely. I remember saying this back when I first read the book.
22/02/2012 09:03:53 PM
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"Damn sister married the Pope instead of my chosen Lord Ohsoimportant"
25/03/2012 03:50:06 PM
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Okay, I admit it, there is no way I am reading such a long post about Elayne.....
19/02/2012 08:14:53 PM
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The Caraline treatment.
25/03/2012 02:41:12 PM
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Do you Colavaer Saighan? I don't recall Caraline having her lands and titles stripped
25/03/2012 10:44:57 PM
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I think she did an admirable job protecting Andor in very challenging circumstances.
11/05/2012 12:05:25 AM
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Re: I think she did an admirable job protecting Andor in very challenging circumstances.
11/05/2012 02:10:01 AM
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Re: I think she did an admirable job protecting Andor in very challenging circumstances.
24/05/2012 06:45:19 AM
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Generally, I think both her means AND ends were correct; reconciling them was the challenge.
30/05/2012 03:55:00 AM
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