Re: Your theory is based on rather severely flawed assumptions
Tor Send a noteboard - 04/02/2012 06:58:41 PM
1. The calendar changed twice after rather long times of uncertainty. First after the Trolloc Wars ended and again after Hawkwings empire disintegrated. Between these times and the establishment of a new calendar people, including the AS lost track of the official date.
Ah, I knew about those. I assumed he was talking about the time during or just after the breaking. I don't see it as relevant, though. There were always Aes Sedai in the tower, even during the Trolloc wars, which means they could have passed on Travelling if they knew it.
Also, for the record, forgetting about the date is another thing I see as unlikely.
2. Not sure where the direct quote is on this one, possibly the Big White Book, but he is correct that it's stated at some point that no AS survived the entirety of the Breaking. Don't forget that there was a good amount of time before the Breaking really got going when the AS still fought the remaining forces of the Dark One. LPD took over leadership and spent years destroying the remaining Forsaken.
Ok. I'd still like the source if anyone has it, but I'm willing to accept that no Aes Sedai lived through all of the breaking. It still doesn't invalidate my point that it seems like a thing that's incredibly useful and relatively quick to learn without requiring a special Talent.
3. He's only harmless because he happened to be with someone who knew what had happened to him and had been given a specific task. It was only a matter of time until he lost control or threw a temper tantrum and did some real damage. A child mind with the power to level buildings is a dangerous combination... Just because he his death was sad doesn't mean he wasn't a ticking time bomb.
I'm not saying he wasn't dangerous, just that the fact that he got the mind of a child disproves Cannoli's original statement, which was
Remember, these are not random nutjobs, their madness comes from the Dark One's touch and in every case we have seen, it has manifested itself as delusions which incite or inspire violence and destruction.
4. The years leading up to the Breaking (meaning the Collapse and the War of Shadow) had systematically torn down most of the advanced technologies like Ter'angreal factories ... This would have left the remaining AS more concerned with either the Prophesies of the Dragon, or with finishing the War ... Then the Breaking really hit... Suddenly rather than a few handful of men, we have millions of men going bat shit crazy. What's left of the AS women are fighting a war on two fronts. Why mention this? Because now they'd be over taxed and probably more focused on the tasks at hand than on finding and training women. This left teaching those they found the fundamentals, likely many of the same weaves that still exist and where deemed useful ... battlefield healing, shielding, and a handful of other critical weaves.
This bit isn't actually relevant to the argument, since you agree that Travelling may have been of the essentials, which would have been passed on if it was useful.
Traveling may have been part of this for those with the Talent and enough strength, but as others have mentioned world conditions would have eventually made Traveling dangerous and eventually they would have stopped teaching a weave that most likely would end up killing people.
This is an assumption. I agree that if it is true, it seems reasonable that Travelling got lost, but I don't agree with the assumption that the conditions would turn Travelling into "a weave that most likely would end up killing people".
5. It's clear from the BWB that there were several groups that had probably decended from AoL AS mentalities (AKA proto-Ajahs) ... The obvious ones that would have come from AoL women are the Blue, Red, Yellow and Green ... Once the Breaking ended groups like the Brown and White would have grown and as first nations evolved the Grey would have found purpose. So rather than a single group we had several, I believe the BWB has some commentary on the various groups, but it also makes it clear that it took several hundred more years for the AS of the WT to build their own infrastructure and begin teaching in a formal manner. Prior to this it seems there were nomadic groups of AS following their own purposes ... Note one of the first acts the WT accomplished was to hunt down the AS not associated with them and force assimilate them... At this point there is no evidence that any AoL women had a hand in what can only be viewed as a bastardization of their system, not too dissimilar from what happened to the Aiel.
The damane system is more dramatic since in Seanchan the AS never united ... There would have been many more weaves circulating and many more damaging ones since for several thousand years rogue AS we're fighting wars amongst themselves and likely operated much more like the AoL Forsaken, the stronger ones likely had several weaker minions who they would have taught ... Imagine an evil Nynaeve with half a dozen Daigian level minions ... Once these women became damane the weaves they each knew would have been consolidated and taught to all damane, thus the Empire only became stronger with each new damane (I imagine the AS who came up with the a'dam was seeking such knowledge). So not only were they recruiting from the general population, they were increasing their knowledge all the time. Kind of like the Borg actually
The damane system is more dramatic since in Seanchan the AS never united ... There would have been many more weaves circulating and many more damaging ones since for several thousand years rogue AS we're fighting wars amongst themselves and likely operated much more like the AoL Forsaken, the stronger ones likely had several weaker minions who they would have taught ... Imagine an evil Nynaeve with half a dozen Daigian level minions ... Once these women became damane the weaves they each knew would have been consolidated and taught to all damane, thus the Empire only became stronger with each new damane (I imagine the AS who came up with the a'dam was seeking such knowledge). So not only were they recruiting from the general population, they were increasing their knowledge all the time. Kind of like the Borg actually
All of this is also not relevant to the argument. But it makes me think I should dig out my copy of the BWB.
6. The Stone of Tear was built using similar weaves, and even today the weaves are being used for Elaida's palace and the chain towers in the Harbors of Tar Valon. Seems like one of those basic weaves taught to AS because it was quick and useful during the breaking.
True.
It seems to me that this whole discussion boils down to "Do you see it as likely that people who knew how to Travel stopped using it during the Breaking, for some reason or other?" I say no, but since we don't know it's just a matter of opinion.
Fram kamerater!
This message last edited by Tor on 04/02/2012 at 07:00:41 PM
How did Travelling become a lost Talent?
03/02/2012 09:09:39 AM
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It is a little odd. Maybe because channelers weren't united for a while?
03/02/2012 02:24:17 PM
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Re: How did Travelling become a lost Talent?
03/02/2012 02:49:02 PM
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Hey, why don't you reference ANY place in the series a character learns ANY weave from a book?
04/02/2012 07:42:43 AM
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i think it could be
03/02/2012 07:56:18 PM
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THANK YOU!!! Are we the only ones here who can see the obvious?!
04/02/2012 07:40:39 AM
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Re: THANK YOU!!! Are we the only ones here who can see the obvious?!
04/02/2012 09:56:48 AM
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Re: THANK YOU!!! Are we the only ones here who can see the obvious?!
04/02/2012 01:57:10 PM
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Have you read the Big White Book? It details some of the events that happened during The Breaking
08/02/2012 04:27:13 PM
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It's always struck me as a tool of the Author more than a good hard fact
04/02/2012 01:40:06 AM
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Your theory is based on rather severely flawed assumptions
04/02/2012 07:34:45 AM
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Re: Your theory is based on rather severely flawed assumptions
04/02/2012 09:48:52 AM
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Re: Your theory is based on rather severely flawed assumptions
04/02/2012 03:04:48 PM
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Re: Your theory is based on rather severely flawed assumptions
04/02/2012 06:58:41 PM
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Re: Your theory is based on rather severely flawed assumptions
05/02/2012 12:00:05 AM
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Re: Your theory is based on rather severely flawed assumptions
05/02/2012 04:05:57 AM
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I don't see why people are having trouble believing Traveling was lost in the Breaking
05/02/2012 05:53:32 PM
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Re: I don't see why people are having trouble believing Traveling was lost in the Breaking
05/02/2012 07:39:51 PM
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My point was that it's surprising only ONE Healing weave survived
11/02/2012 08:25:02 PM
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Re: I don't see why people are having trouble believing Traveling was lost in the Breaking
05/02/2012 09:11:04 PM
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I agree. I was going to respond but you covered most of the bases.
08/02/2012 04:13:20 PM
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Re: Your theory is based on rather severely flawed assumptions
05/02/2012 09:52:35 PM
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You really need to read the BWB sections regarding this
14/02/2012 01:20:20 AM
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he needs to read it just to see it for his own eyes
14/02/2012 02:46:44 AM
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Re: he needs to read it just to see it for his own eyes
14/02/2012 10:15:46 PM
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I would agree with you on less structured parts of the series
15/02/2012 03:38:37 PM
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Re: I would agree with you on less structured parts of the series
16/02/2012 09:41:29 PM
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That I can agree with
17/02/2012 05:46:49 AM
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Re: That I can agree with
17/02/2012 09:26:50 AM
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Seriously! The Yellow should be ashamed
17/02/2012 01:49:07 PM
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Well to be fair to the Yellow (which generally annoy me as an Ajah)...
17/02/2012 06:20:06 PM
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Re: Your theory is based on rather severely flawed assumptions
05/02/2012 09:02:28 PM
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Why would the AoL Servants of All build themselves a self-aggrandizing island-city-fort-tower?
08/02/2012 03:03:49 PM
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Re: Why would the AoL Servants of All build themselves a self-aggrandizing island-city-fort-tower?
09/02/2012 10:38:23 PM
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Re: Why would the AoL Servants of All build themselves a self-aggrandizing island-city-fort-tower?
11/02/2012 07:58:40 PM
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The White Tower began construction in 98 AB. Go read the section in the BWB
12/02/2012 01:48:58 AM
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The Wheel Weaves as the Wheel Wills. *NM*
06/02/2012 02:38:36 AM
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I wonder if it'd possible to open gateways based on the memories of a previous incarnation? *NM*
07/02/2012 09:56:25 PM
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except for Rand/LTT and Birgitte, I get the impression that people don't have memories of past lives *NM*
08/02/2012 02:38:00 AM
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