On gateways - Edit 1
Before modification by Sidious at 18/12/2011 07:20:19 AM
You stated in the sub-thread above that Androl's gateway talent disproves Logain's gateway comparison as strength evidence.
Well, it does not. Look at the context.
Yes, there exists some form of gateway talent, just like Berowin's shielding talent. But channelers' own comments prove to us that this is rare enough that gateway size in general is very strongly associated with channeler strength.
And in particular, Logain's comment tells us that in the Logain/Rand case, it is stronly correlated.
Logain is a leader of the Ashaman who has direct experience of the strengths and gateway sizes of hundreds of male channelers.
And clearly, based on his experience with such a large number of channelers, strength and gateway size is correlated in such a vast majority of cases that Logain feels Rand's gateway size is a very strong indication of his comparative strength.
And furthermore, Logain only makes this comment AFTER sensing Rand's full strength, and commenting on the fact that this indeed is Rand's full strength.
Hence, AFTER sensing Rand's full strength, he still states that their comparative gateway sizes are in correspondence with their strength difference.
Logain himself makes this evaluation, having both their comparative gatway sizes and comparative strengths at hand to make this comparison. And he STILL is comfortable that the one is in correspondence to the other.
So definitely in this instance strength is related to gateway strength, and quite accurately too, and judging by Logain's confidence in the obviousness of the correlation, also in the vast majority of other instances, gateway size is perfectly correlated to strength.
Well, it does not. Look at the context.
Yes, there exists some form of gateway talent, just like Berowin's shielding talent. But channelers' own comments prove to us that this is rare enough that gateway size in general is very strongly associated with channeler strength.
And in particular, Logain's comment tells us that in the Logain/Rand case, it is stronly correlated.
Logain is a leader of the Ashaman who has direct experience of the strengths and gateway sizes of hundreds of male channelers.
And clearly, based on his experience with such a large number of channelers, strength and gateway size is correlated in such a vast majority of cases that Logain feels Rand's gateway size is a very strong indication of his comparative strength.
And furthermore, Logain only makes this comment AFTER sensing Rand's full strength, and commenting on the fact that this indeed is Rand's full strength.
Hence, AFTER sensing Rand's full strength, he still states that their comparative gateway sizes are in correspondence with their strength difference.
Logain himself makes this evaluation, having both their comparative gatway sizes and comparative strengths at hand to make this comparison. And he STILL is comfortable that the one is in correspondence to the other.
So definitely in this instance strength is related to gateway strength, and quite accurately too, and judging by Logain's confidence in the obviousness of the correlation, also in the vast majority of other instances, gateway size is perfectly correlated to strength.
I don't think its perfectly correlated at all. Firstly, we know that it's a Talent, which means that by definition channelers display varying aptitudes with the weave. Forgetting even outliers like Androl and Berowin who show extreme forms of the Talent, we have seen that Aviendha makes smaller gateways than Elayne despite having very similar strength in the Power. If we knew nothing about the two channelers, we would mistakenly assume that Elayne is stronger in the Power than Aviendha.
I do agree that there is a strong correlation between the two. Logain has obviously seen enough Ash'aman weaving gateways. He makes the biggest gateways and he's also the strongest Ash'aman. Rand makes a bigger gateway and is also stronger. However, we don't know if Rand's is proportionately more. Rand may be 5% stronger than Logain but because he has a strong Talent, his gateways are 20% larger in area. Conversely, Logain may have a weak Talent. Most Aes Sedai can only make a gateway large enough to put their arms through, but they aren't a hundred times weaker than Rand. The relationship is not completeley linear.
The stronger you are in the Power, the bigger your gateways. There is no doubt of that. But you can't extrapolate strength from a gateway. If Demandred saw Androl from a distance he might think that he is very strong in the Power, but it is a poor assumption which I don't think he'd make in the first place.
And because we're discussing strength in general, remember that it takes roughly as many women to hold Rand and Logain. Their power must be close, especially because Logain tried to break free and five women almost lost the shield.