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On gateways Sidious Send a noteboard - 18/12/2011 07:17:09 AM
You stated in the sub-thread above that Androl's gateway talent disproves Logain's gateway comparison as strength evidence.

Well, it does not. Look at the context.

Yes, there exists some form of gateway talent, just like Berowin's shielding talent. But channelers' own comments prove to us that this is rare enough that gateway size in general is very strongly associated with channeler strength.

And in particular, Logain's comment tells us that in the Logain/Rand case, it is stronly correlated.

Logain is a leader of the Ashaman who has direct experience of the strengths and gateway sizes of hundreds of male channelers.

And clearly, based on his experience with such a large number of channelers, strength and gateway size is correlated in such a vast majority of cases that Logain feels Rand's gateway size is a very strong indication of his comparative strength.

And furthermore, Logain only makes this comment AFTER sensing Rand's full strength, and commenting on the fact that this indeed is Rand's full strength.

Hence, AFTER sensing Rand's full strength, he still states that their comparative gateway sizes are in correspondence with their strength difference.

Logain himself makes this evaluation, having both their comparative gatway sizes and comparative strengths at hand to make this comparison. And he STILL is comfortable that the one is in correspondence to the other.

So definitely in this instance strength is related to gateway strength, and quite accurately too, and judging by Logain's confidence in the obviousness of the correlation, also in the vast majority of other instances, gateway size is perfectly correlated to strength.





I don't think its perfectly correlated at all. Firstly, we know that it's a Talent, which means that by definition channelers display varying aptitudes with the weave. Forgetting even outliers like Androl and Berowin who show extreme forms of the Talent, we have seen that Aviendha makes smaller gateways than Elayne despite having very similar strength in the Power. If we knew nothing about the two channelers, we would mistakenly assume that Elayne is stronger in the Power than Aviendha.

I do agree that there is a strong correlation between the two. Logain has obviously seen enough Ash'aman weaving gateways. He makes the biggest gateways and he's also the strongest Ash'aman. Rand makes a bigger gateway and is also stronger. However, we don't know if Rand's is proportionately more. Rand may be 5% stronger than Logain but because he has a strong Talent, his gateways are 20% larger in area. Conversely, Logain may have a weak Talent. Most Aes Sedai can only make a gateway large enough to put their arms through, but they aren't a hundred times weaker than Rand. The relationship is not completeley linear.

The stronger you are in the Power, the bigger your gateways. There is no doubt of that. But you can't extrapolate strength from a gateway. If Demandred saw Androl from a distance he might think that he is very strong in the Power, but it is a poor assumption which I don't think he'd make in the first place.

And because we're discussing strength in general, remember that it takes roughly as many women to hold Rand and Logain. Their power must be close, especially because Logain tried to break free and five women almost lost the shield.
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This message last edited by Sidious on 18/12/2011 at 07:20:19 AM
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Underestimating Forsaken strength - 11/12/2011 05:57:22 AM 1871 Views
Ah, my favourite topic makes a return... - 11/12/2011 07:45:29 AM 773 Views
Re: Ah, my favourite topic makes a return... - 11/12/2011 10:25:03 PM 789 Views
Yes, you are probably correct - 12/12/2011 06:26:07 AM 891 Views
Re: and some of the information given to us is flawed - 12/12/2011 07:38:59 PM 696 Views
The real question is - What percentage of her full strength did Nynaeve achieve by Book 4? - 12/12/2011 08:31:30 PM 728 Views
I find that unlikely - 12/12/2011 09:28:07 PM 696 Views
Easy question for you: Based on the evidence, what percentage of her strength was Nynaeve at in tSR? - 13/12/2011 07:09:56 AM 666 Views
Well.... - 13/12/2011 01:12:48 PM 729 Views
Well there we have it - 13/12/2011 01:36:45 PM 734 Views
Re: Well there we have it - 13/12/2011 02:06:14 PM 763 Views
Re: Well there we have it - 13/12/2011 02:12:10 PM 699 Views
Alivia may not even be stronger than Nynaeve... - 14/12/2011 03:14:06 AM 771 Views
That wouldn't surprise me actually *NM* - 14/12/2011 07:46:47 AM 403 Views
Where would you place Egwene though? - 14/12/2011 09:13:46 AM 680 Views
Re: Where would you place Egwene though? - 14/12/2011 12:53:49 PM 678 Views
Bonfire next to a candle indeed. Hehehe... - 14/12/2011 05:50:34 PM 820 Views
- 14/12/2011 06:56:40 PM 633 Views
The same "step" you refer to seperates Egwene from normal Aes Sedai according to RJ... - 14/12/2011 07:14:55 PM 662 Views
Yes! And...? - 15/12/2011 02:53:37 AM 670 Views
Yes I would agree with that - 14/12/2011 08:24:35 PM 822 Views
Alivia with an angreal > > > Cyndane - 14/12/2011 08:50:41 PM 599 Views
No - 14/12/2011 09:10:34 PM 686 Views
That makes no sense. - 14/12/2011 09:13:48 PM 751 Views
Correct. - 14/12/2011 09:43:53 PM 693 Views
Re: Correct. - 15/12/2011 05:54:37 AM 688 Views
So many instances of logical laziness in that post... - 14/12/2011 10:01:45 PM 1128 Views
Re: So many instances of logical laziness in that post... - 15/12/2011 06:16:01 AM 611 Views
Only slight diffence I have is regarding general AS strength - 30/12/2011 04:45:49 PM 704 Views
I think it was just Aes Sedai hyperbole - 15/12/2011 09:51:00 PM 555 Views
And entirely based off your shared assumption. - 14/12/2011 05:15:51 AM 758 Views
Actually that's a lot of logical assumption. *NM* - 13/12/2011 01:28:00 PM 339 Views
But... - 14/12/2011 03:06:15 AM 557 Views
And - 30/12/2011 05:07:13 PM 658 Views
Yes - 13/12/2011 04:16:40 PM 814 Views
Re: Yes - 13/12/2011 04:47:17 PM 716 Views
Nah. Beyond the realm of possibility. Sorry, - 13/12/2011 05:12:40 PM 777 Views
There are a number of comments from Q&As that shows that this is possible and more complex. - 13/12/2011 08:23:49 PM 741 Views
None of which I disagree with, but a far cry from women being weaker just due to believing it... - 13/12/2011 08:39:40 PM 650 Views
But that is my point: it wouldn't be merely force of will. - 13/12/2011 09:40:17 PM 637 Views
What Rand is doing... - 14/12/2011 03:43:08 AM 760 Views
That would make sense given Min's vision - 16/12/2011 04:37:56 PM 561 Views
Wait.. I DIDN'T write that! - 14/12/2011 03:02:04 AM 638 Views
Reply to your question of - "Why use Logain gateway comparison as evidence:" - 17/12/2011 03:08:19 PM 733 Views
You're basically saying "correlation equals causation"... - 18/12/2011 06:18:47 AM 678 Views
On gateways - 18/12/2011 07:17:09 AM 719 Views
Might assume that Elayne is stronger in the Power than Aviendha. - 19/12/2011 02:40:46 PM 914 Views
I suspect he knows that... - 19/12/2011 05:53:00 PM 631 Views
Nope...some maths problems in your post. - 19/12/2011 07:41:29 PM 681 Views
But 64 square feet is not Elayne's maximum... - 20/12/2011 02:46:50 AM 632 Views
But Shielding is also relative. - 27/12/2011 09:35:11 PM 1889 Views
Re: Underestimating Forsaken strength - 22/12/2011 05:24:53 PM 675 Views

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