Re: There's always room for error, and in general I agree with some of your placements... - Edit 1
Before modification by Sidious at 17/12/2011 10:26:36 AM
I really don't see why that single quote, way early in the series, and by no means even remotely accurate, should give any definition to a possible strength list.
The only way the candle to bonfire comparison makes sense is if Egwene is strength 1 or 2 to Nynaeve's 95, which is so out of the realm of possibility as to be ludicrous.
The facts we have point to Nynaeve not being able to shield Elayne even when Elayne is drink-addled via her bond. We have Moghedien's statement that Elayne was definitely not a pushover in strength. We have RJ's statement that Egwene, Elayne and Aviendha were a step below the Foresaken. We have Egwene laying traps in her apartment, ready to duke it out with the OP with Mesaana, with no mention of even an angreal.
The only way the candle to bonfire comparison makes sense is if Egwene is strength 1 or 2 to Nynaeve's 95, which is so out of the realm of possibility as to be ludicrous.
The facts we have point to Nynaeve not being able to shield Elayne even when Elayne is drink-addled via her bond. We have Moghedien's statement that Elayne was definitely not a pushover in strength. We have RJ's statement that Egwene, Elayne and Aviendha were a step below the Foresaken. We have Egwene laying traps in her apartment, ready to duke it out with the OP with Mesaana, with no mention of even an angreal.
The bonfire quote can obviously not be taken literally, otherwise Nynaeve would be hundreds or thousands of times stronger than Egwene. It does indicate that a big gap separates them, but if one considers that Moiraine spoke the statement, it's really no surprise at all. The key to these statements is often to look at who spoke them... Reanne's statement on Alivia's considerable advantage may not be so considerable considering Reanne would use herself as the standard. By the same token, Graendal saying that someone is 'not negligible' implies that the woman is incredibly powerful because of Graendal's own innate power.
If Nynaeve has a strength of 95, Egwene 70 and Moiraine 30, then we can see how immensely powerful Egwene is. Aes Sedai have hardly ever known someone to be twice as strong as some of their most powerful members. Now imagine Moiraine finds a woman who has almost her whole strength on top of Egwene's. That would certainly be a massive discovery and worthy of 'bonfire'. Everything is relative.
I obviously don't agree with Shannow's post below. In my opinion he takes far greater liberties with OP strength assumption and then goes further and labels them as fact or logical deduction. For instance, although RJ said that Egwene is between Moiraine and Nynaeve, he never said it was linear or part of some grand scheme to make all things equal. What is most likely is that he has categorized the channelers into Forsaken, Strong channelers and Aes Sedai.
One can take any statement and label it as fact. Take for instance, Moiraine's statement that Egwene and Aviendha could match one of the Forsaken together. 'Logically' one could assume that they have a strength of 50 because 50+50=100, but one need only point out the following points...
1. Moiraine is often wrong about the Forsaken.
2. Who is she comparing them to? Ishamael or Moghedien?
3. Alivia really is high Forsaken strength, and with a strong angreal she was on equal footing with Cyndane. Therefore for Egwene and Aviendha to match one of the Forsaken females they would need a strength of 150 or more. Therefore 75 is a more likely strength for Egwene/Aviendha. It also implies that Moiraine thinks that the two can overwhelm a highly trained and super-strong channeler, meaning that Nynaeve is probably considerably weaker than the two of them combined, thus once again suggesting that either channeler alone is not massively below Nynaeve as suggested, but certainly one level below. Therefore strengths of 70 and 95 are more than reasonable.
I don't know why anyone would come here and suggest that their list is fact when all but one statement in the series can be refuted regarding Forsaken strength. If I decided in my mind that Mesaana is second only to Lanfear, there is not a single quote in the series to contradict me.
I'm perfectly happy not to use RJ's comment of Egwene being just "one step above Moiraine" as proof of her weakness, but then by the same token, the other half of the same quote, namely that she is "one step below the Forsaken" must be ignored as well.
You can't believe one and not the other, else you're just assigning your own, randomly generated interpretation to her relative strength based on nothing but whim. I happen to apply the quote evenly, which is more than can be said for the "Egwene is closer to a Forsaken than to Moiraine" crowd.
Next, when you state that Moiraine is often wrong about the Forsaken at least apply that even handedly, by accepting that if she is wrong in saying Egwene plus Aviendha can match one of the Forsaken, she could just as well be overestimating their strength as underestimating it. Maybe she IS wrong, and it actually takes THREE Egwene's to match Lanfear, not two.
A last point for now, although I can continue picking your post apart for much longer, is on Alivia.
You go on about the weakness of the Aes Sedai influencing their estimate of Alivia being SIGNIFICANTLY stronger than Nynaeve, but you forget that in Winter's Heart Chapter 31 Nynaeve herself shows us just how much stronger Alivia is than herself.
She doesn't even want to be alone in the room with Alivia, which clearly indicates that she doesn't believe she would stand a chance against Alivia if she was hostile. This is in sharp contrast to Nynaeve's confidence, and in fact OVERCONFIDENCE, when facing Talaan who is her exact equal in strength.
I would also refute your earlier suggestion that they were comparing Alivia to Nynaeve's current strength. As Linda has pointed out quite clearly in her strength list article on 13th depository, women refer to other women's POTENTIAL when comparing them, as they can sense it, as is the case with Sharina.
They compare Sharina's potential to Nyaneve's potential and it is only logical that they are doing the same with Alivia.
So again, if logic is applied evenly, it is pretty clear that not only is Nynaeve significantly stronger than Egwene, but there is also signfiicant room above Nynaeve on the list, to accomodate the 6 women who are proven to stronger than her, as per Sanderson.
I've got a lot more, as you know, but I'll leave it there for now. Maybe I'll use some of it later.
No what is amusing and sad is that you truly believe you know how strong these people are compared to one another, as if you've puzzled out what a multitude of dedicated readers cannot. Its possible and even likely that we will never know because it never existed.
I have no problem throwing out quotes or believing only certain things... RJ said he deliberately kept it muddy. Or do you still believe that Moghedien is stronger than the strongest 10 women in the Tower?
And you've obviously ignored all my posts explaining Alivia's strength which makes me wonder if I'm wasting my time. Nynaeve has confidence issues around Alivia, and as demonstrated in a distant discussion previously, Nynaeve herself has never measured Alivia's strength in the Power because she actually can't. She hasn't been trained to do so or hasnt mastered it. She's relying on Reanne's interpretation.
And I've never said that Egwene is Forsaken power. I believe Moiraine is at 30, Egwene at 70 and Nynaeve at 95. That means Egwene is 2x Moiraine and Nynaeve 3x which is what I've always maintained. Egwene is significantly weaker than Moghedien and 40% weaker than the other Forsaken.
You can pick all you want, I've never said I'm right and you consistently say you are but with no good evidence.
I agree roughly with your relative placements of Moiraine and Egwene, although I would not put Egwene at more than double Moiraine's strength. In fact, I'd say she is a tad under double Moiraine's strength, all things considered.
My main gripe is how close you place Nynaeve to Lanfear.
Egwene at say 70% of Nynaeve's full strength is quite realistic. But there is no evidence refuting a placement of Nynaeve at 85. In fact, with 6 women above her, that is quite a reasonable placement.
And with Nynaeve at 85, Egwene's 70% of Nynaeve's strength comes down to 60% of Lanfear's strength. Which I think is in correlation with virtually all the evidence, and refuted by none.
I don't understand why you think Lanfear is so strong. The more I think about Jordan's plan for Nynaeve, the more I think she was designed to be the female equivalent of Logain/Taim in strength. Its not unlikely that Alivia and Sharina are both as strong as Lanfear, or perhaps as strong as Graendal or Cyndane. We just don't know. The fact that only six women exceed Nynaeve in strength implies more that she is at the top and less that there are many levels above her. I personally don't think Lanfear could overwhelm any of the female Forsaken (obviously Moghedien excluded)... Theyre too powerful and skilled.
We should always keep an open mind regarding the strength tree. What if it looked like this...
Lanfear, Alivia, Sharina (100)
Semirhage, Someryn, Cyndane (97)
Nynaeve, Graendal (95)
Mesaana (93)
Moghedien ( 80)
That would also fulfill all the relevant quotes.
I think the same is true of the males too by the way. I dont think there's more than 5% difference between the top and the bottom. There were too many evil channelers in the AOL for this sort of discrepancy to exist. Logically by the end of the war the only survivors were those who were so close in strength and skill that they literally wouldnt risk a head on confrontation.
And I really think is well demonstrated in the latter part of the series. Graendal will not risk Arangar head-on but when she's distracted she has the strength to shield her unaided.