Active Users:632 Time:24/12/2024 01:39:19 AM
Yes I would agree with that Sidious Send a noteboard - 14/12/2011 08:24:35 PM
I really don't see why that single quote, way early in the series, and by no means even remotely accurate, should give any definition to a possible strength list.

The only way the candle to bonfire comparison makes sense is if Egwene is strength 1 or 2 to Nynaeve's 95, which is so out of the realm of possibility as to be ludicrous.

The facts we have point to Nynaeve not being able to shield Elayne even when Elayne is drink-addled via her bond. We have Moghedien's statement that Elayne was definitely not a pushover in strength. We have RJ's statement that Egwene, Elayne and Aviendha were a step below the Foresaken. We have Egwene laying traps in her apartment, ready to duke it out with the OP with Mesaana, with no mention of even an angreal.


The bonfire quote can obviously not be taken literally, otherwise Nynaeve would be hundreds or thousands of times stronger than Egwene. It does indicate that a big gap separates them, but if one considers that Moiraine spoke the statement, it's really no surprise at all. The key to these statements is often to look at who spoke them... Reanne's statement on Alivia's considerable advantage may not be so considerable considering Reanne would use herself as the standard. By the same token, Graendal saying that someone is 'not negligible' implies that the woman is incredibly powerful because of Graendal's own innate power.

If Nynaeve has a strength of 95, Egwene 70 and Moiraine 30, then we can see how immensely powerful Egwene is. Aes Sedai have hardly ever known someone to be twice as strong as some of their most powerful members. Now imagine Moiraine finds a woman who has almost her whole strength on top of Egwene's. That would certainly be a massive discovery and worthy of 'bonfire'. Everything is relative.

I obviously don't agree with Shannow's post below. In my opinion he takes far greater liberties with OP strength assumption and then goes further and labels them as fact or logical deduction. For instance, although RJ said that Egwene is between Moiraine and Nynaeve, he never said it was linear or part of some grand scheme to make all things equal. What is most likely is that he has categorized the channelers into Forsaken, Strong channelers and Aes Sedai.

One can take any statement and label it as fact. Take for instance, Moiraine's statement that Egwene and Aviendha could match one of the Forsaken together. 'Logically' one could assume that they have a strength of 50 because 50+50=100, but one need only point out the following points...

1. Moiraine is often wrong about the Forsaken.
2. Who is she comparing them to? Ishamael or Moghedien?
3. Alivia really is high Forsaken strength, and with a strong angreal she was on equal footing with Cyndane. Therefore for Egwene and Aviendha to match one of the Forsaken females they would need a strength of 150 or more. Therefore 75 is a more likely strength for Egwene/Aviendha. It also implies that Moiraine thinks that the two can overwhelm a highly trained and super-strong channeler, meaning that Nynaeve is probably considerably weaker than the two of them combined, thus once again suggesting that either channeler alone is not massively below Nynaeve as suggested, but certainly one level below. Therefore strengths of 70 and 95 are more than reasonable.

I don't know why anyone would come here and suggest that their list is fact when all but one statement in the series can be refuted regarding Forsaken strength. If I decided in my mind that Mesaana is second only to Lanfear, there is not a single quote in the series to contradict me.
Wheel of Time board admin
Fan of Lanfear
Reply to message
Underestimating Forsaken strength - 11/12/2011 05:57:22 AM 1882 Views
Ah, my favourite topic makes a return... - 11/12/2011 07:45:29 AM 783 Views
Re: Ah, my favourite topic makes a return... - 11/12/2011 10:25:03 PM 799 Views
Yes, you are probably correct - 12/12/2011 06:26:07 AM 903 Views
Re: and some of the information given to us is flawed - 12/12/2011 07:38:59 PM 708 Views
The real question is - What percentage of her full strength did Nynaeve achieve by Book 4? - 12/12/2011 08:31:30 PM 739 Views
I find that unlikely - 12/12/2011 09:28:07 PM 706 Views
Easy question for you: Based on the evidence, what percentage of her strength was Nynaeve at in tSR? - 13/12/2011 07:09:56 AM 684 Views
Well.... - 13/12/2011 01:12:48 PM 742 Views
Well there we have it - 13/12/2011 01:36:45 PM 747 Views
Re: Well there we have it - 13/12/2011 02:06:14 PM 779 Views
Re: Well there we have it - 13/12/2011 02:12:10 PM 711 Views
Alivia may not even be stronger than Nynaeve... - 14/12/2011 03:14:06 AM 787 Views
That wouldn't surprise me actually *NM* - 14/12/2011 07:46:47 AM 408 Views
Where would you place Egwene though? - 14/12/2011 09:13:46 AM 697 Views
Re: Where would you place Egwene though? - 14/12/2011 12:53:49 PM 694 Views
Bonfire next to a candle indeed. Hehehe... - 14/12/2011 05:50:34 PM 838 Views
- 14/12/2011 06:56:40 PM 648 Views
The same "step" you refer to seperates Egwene from normal Aes Sedai according to RJ... - 14/12/2011 07:14:55 PM 673 Views
Yes! And...? - 15/12/2011 02:53:37 AM 684 Views
Yes I would agree with that - 14/12/2011 08:24:35 PM 833 Views
Alivia with an angreal > > > Cyndane - 14/12/2011 08:50:41 PM 618 Views
No - 14/12/2011 09:10:34 PM 705 Views
That makes no sense. - 14/12/2011 09:13:48 PM 768 Views
Correct. - 14/12/2011 09:43:53 PM 703 Views
Re: Correct. - 15/12/2011 05:54:37 AM 700 Views
So many instances of logical laziness in that post... - 14/12/2011 10:01:45 PM 1142 Views
Re: So many instances of logical laziness in that post... - 15/12/2011 06:16:01 AM 624 Views
Only slight diffence I have is regarding general AS strength - 30/12/2011 04:45:49 PM 715 Views
I think it was just Aes Sedai hyperbole - 15/12/2011 09:51:00 PM 573 Views
And entirely based off your shared assumption. - 14/12/2011 05:15:51 AM 771 Views
Actually that's a lot of logical assumption. *NM* - 13/12/2011 01:28:00 PM 344 Views
But... - 14/12/2011 03:06:15 AM 571 Views
And - 30/12/2011 05:07:13 PM 671 Views
Yes - 13/12/2011 04:16:40 PM 828 Views
Re: Yes - 13/12/2011 04:47:17 PM 733 Views
Nah. Beyond the realm of possibility. Sorry, - 13/12/2011 05:12:40 PM 791 Views
There are a number of comments from Q&As that shows that this is possible and more complex. - 13/12/2011 08:23:49 PM 752 Views
None of which I disagree with, but a far cry from women being weaker just due to believing it... - 13/12/2011 08:39:40 PM 662 Views
But that is my point: it wouldn't be merely force of will. - 13/12/2011 09:40:17 PM 652 Views
What Rand is doing... - 14/12/2011 03:43:08 AM 776 Views
That would make sense given Min's vision - 16/12/2011 04:37:56 PM 574 Views
Wait.. I DIDN'T write that! - 14/12/2011 03:02:04 AM 654 Views
Reply to your question of - "Why use Logain gateway comparison as evidence:" - 17/12/2011 03:08:19 PM 753 Views
You're basically saying "correlation equals causation"... - 18/12/2011 06:18:47 AM 694 Views
On gateways - 18/12/2011 07:17:09 AM 728 Views
Might assume that Elayne is stronger in the Power than Aviendha. - 19/12/2011 02:40:46 PM 925 Views
I suspect he knows that... - 19/12/2011 05:53:00 PM 650 Views
Nope...some maths problems in your post. - 19/12/2011 07:41:29 PM 691 Views
But 64 square feet is not Elayne's maximum... - 20/12/2011 02:46:50 AM 646 Views
But Shielding is also relative. - 27/12/2011 09:35:11 PM 1899 Views
Re: Underestimating Forsaken strength - 22/12/2011 05:24:53 PM 688 Views

Reply to Message