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I can't stand people who don't know stuff but act like they do. Cannoli Send a noteboard - 04/12/2011 03:23:47 AM
Look, I've had my issues with Egwene, but try to look at it from her perspective.

First off, from books 7-12 Rand is going insane. And not only that, he's become uncaring and unfeeling. Inhuman. Both Nnneave's trip into Rand's mind after healing Naeff in ToM and his own viewpoint in Veins of Gold confirm this.

He almost kills Tam in a fit of rage. Even Tam himself says, "Unstable?" Tam asked. "Nynaeve, that boy is right near insane. What has happened to him? I understand what battle can do to a man, but ..."

Nyneave is with him for a lot of these episodes, and the balefire one a Natrim's Barrow. Egwene talks with her. As have other AS and eyes and ears to witness varying episodes of behavior from Rand that are, to put in mildly, troubling. Temperamental, distrustful, arrogant, and erratic are the words the eyes and ears have used to describe Rand. (ToM, The Amyrlin's Anger, Siuan POV). And it's hard to argue they are inaccurate.

First of all, Egwene has no first-hand knowledge of any of this. Secondly, Aes Sedai are in no way reasonable sources on the topic of a man who can channel. Even Egwene, when she accompanied him, looked at every little thing she did not like or sign of change as a harbinger of incipient madness. For Aes Sedai who fixate on this sort of thing professionally, it's going to be even worse. As for Nynaeve's reports, there is no way she's going to report his instability to Egwene without making it abundantly clear that he's all better now. Egwene has absolutely nothing to go on regarding his dark period, and her own misinterpretations and worst-case perceptions of him back when he was a lot more mellow give the lie to any notion that she is viewing him fairly as Amyrlin. She is already seeing him as her major rival for worldly power, and is already determined to defy anything he suggests short of kneeling to her or placing himself in White Tower custody. And then there is the fact that just about every Aes Sedai whose judgment is worth a clipped Altaran copper and who spends time in his company comes away with a better impression of him than Egwene conjures out of infrequent observations.

And as for the eyes-and-ears stuff, second and third hand reports are going to be a shaky enough source even setting aside that most of them are going to be tiny, economically-written, pigeon-carried letters in code. How accurate a picture are they going to be painting? We see through distant sources all sorts of wrong impressions of events that we know to have been different than what the stories tell, so Egwene has no excuse for diving right in and believing the worst of everything. Anyway, that notion of eyes-and-ears reports being character references is a very new thing. In Jordan's books, where people had functioning brains, people offered opinions of others based on what they saw or knew, whereas eyes-and-ears were simply a means to learn facts of events, as the spy saw them. Subjective judgments about the sanity of a person the spy was unlikely to have even met never appeared in any sort of reports, which is why guys like Padan Fain who could accurately claim first-hand knowledge of a guy like Rand could plausibly gain access to the Amyrlin Seat and Lord Captain Commander of the Children of the Light.

Second, the idea that Egwene has never been a good friend to Rand is just silly.

Despite all this negative information she is getting on Rand, she still doesn't turn on him in ToM. Even though she seems set to before their meeting. Thinking of him as a criminal. And before all you Egwene bashers jump in, this is a view even Rand himself shares: "I should have wished for such a convenient set of backs on which to heap the blame for my crimes." ToM, The Amyrlin's Anger, p83, HB.
More Sanderson fucktardery. Rand didn't commit any crimes. He's just backlashed into whiny brooding mode. Why don't you name some of those crimes? He's speaking rhetorically, and possibly suggesting what his rule would have been like had the Aes Sedai been in charge of him. In other words, it's better to be able to blame someone else for all sorts of major crimes, than to suffer the guilt of a few venial transgressions.

Egwene thinks to herself: "There didn't seem to be madness in his eyes. She knew those eyes. She knew Rand." "Light", she thought, "I'm wrong. I can't think of him only as the Dragon Reborn. I'm here for a reason. He's here for a reason. To me, he must be Rand. Because Rand can be trusted, while the Dragon Reborn must be feared."

Still, breaking the seals is a bridge too far for her, despite her thoughts that Rand could be trusted with the fate of the world (ToM, HB, p. 84). But she wants to change his mind, not oppose him violently.
And where does she get off doing that? Her entire training to this point has been about esoteric skills and political tactics and strategy. She has absolutely no grounding for claiming any knowledge or insight that would justify her gainsaying a man absolutely known to be the reborn incarnation of maker of those Seals. She has no grounds at all, aside from her typical rebellion against anyone telling her what to do or daring to place themselves above her or act like they know more than she. Egwene spends the entire series second-guessing other characters, and BEING WRONG. This is just the latest in her string.

And most of her opposition comes from the dream she has misinterpreted (him hacking the globe, which, I believe, deals the with future of the Aiel, the 23 Stars, being, I think, a WO+chief for the 11 clans remaining, + 1 for the Shaido and + 1 for the Jenn). Regardless, I don't think it has to deal with the Seals.
But she does, which once again makes her WRONG. As always. And yet, she continues to not only second-guess and interfere, but thanks to her, Caemlyn is going to burn.

She doesn't turn on him in ToM, and she hasn't the whole series. Let me count the ways. In EotW she overcomes her initial reaction to Rand being able to channel and hugs him anyway, telling him she doesn't care.
Well that's pretty fucking stupid, when you consider he's the equivalent of a plague vector with a suitcase-nuke on an erratic time chained to his wrist. Don't forget, to us, Rand is the Hero, so of course he's not going to meet the fate of all those other poor wretches. To someone IN the books, instead of reading them, he has just become the most dangerous threat to everyone she knows outside the Two Rivers, and that's even taking into consideration that they are in the middle of the Blight. Her hiding him in Fal Dara is the equivalent of hiding an ebola-germ-coughing Osama bin Laden from the FBI & the CDC. The only thing that justifies her actions is knowledge that she has no way of possessing (which Moiraine & later Siuan & Verin do, but still not Egwene).

In tGH she helps Rand escape from Fal Dara. Throughout the whole series, she never once tells anyone what he is until it is already common knowledge.
Which was criminally insane. Lucky for her, he turned out to NOT be one of the ones who went mad and started blasting them to smithereens, and her being right has nothing to do with any warm fuzzy crap like "believing in his goodness." No one has any control over when the taint gets them and it WILL get any and all, until Rand fixes that with Nynaeve's help for which Egwene planned to punish her. All Egwene did was expose every friend she had outside the Two Rivers to the fate of Ilyena Sunhair and her kids.

She stands up/lies to Elaida on this score numerous times in the Tower,
You mean she covers up her being an accessory when talking to the taint-police who might have the ability to put her out of the Tower?
And numerous is a rather pretentious way of saying "twice, over the course of a year."

and even to Moiraine as well.
WHEN? This never happened! Actually, Moiraine stuck up for Rand when Egwene wondered why Moiraine wasn't spilling his secrets to the Wise Ones.

She and Elayne try to help Rand learn to channel in tGH, and to detect a woman's channeling.
Elayne and Rand, as in the vast majority of the books, never encountered one another in tGH. Secondly, when they actually did do that, two whole books later, they were not being sincere. It was a ruse to hang out with him so they could manipulate his emotions. As in her efforts to help him in Fal Dara, this was inspired as much by Egwene wrongly thinking she knows better than the experts. Once again, Egwene chortles to herself that she will succeed where the Tower has failed for three thousand years, and she is strong enough to handle this lump-brained fool man, and once again, all she turns up is an epic fail. But as of their very latest encounter, she still has not learned that she NEVER knows better than the experts.

She conspires with Elayne to pass him off to her best friend.
Even when leading the rebels, she still can't believe Rand would forcibly bond sisters.

And when she learns the whole truth, she's ready to punish him for something for which she knows he was not responsible!

Hey, you know what ELSE she did not believe? That Elaida and the Reds set up false dragons! When she heard those stories, she stomped away in a fury. I guess that makes her Elaida's best friend, by your logic?

And these are just the ones off the top of my head.

And this idea that Rand doesn't like or respect Egwene? It's foolishness. No doubt, they've butted heads on some issues (bonding AS, for instance).
Um, yeah. That is just about the one issue they have NOT butted heads over, because he all but unilaterally surrendered before the fight could start. Meanwhile they have butted heads on just about EVERY policy issue where Egwene presumed to inject herself. They have disagreed about channeling to save Cairhien, whether or not he was entitled to a modicum of privacy, whether or not he should obey Moiraine or Moiraine should obey him, whether or not he had the basic right to refuse medical care, whether or not he should command the Aiel to refrain from stealing food, burning noncombatant houses or committing genocide, whether or not he had the military capacity to fight Rahvin, whether or not he needed an untrained Accepted with absolutely no serious combat experience dogging his heels when he went to face Rahvin, whether or not he should have sex with Aviendha, whether or not he & Elayne should actually consummate the relationship you claim she tried so hard to set up, whether or not Berelain was a good person and worthy of respect, whether or not Galina was a member of Alviarin's faction, whether or not he could work with the Red Ajah...and that's just off the top of MY head.

And been wary of each other from time to time. But what does Rand thinks when Siuan tells him that Egwene is an incredible Amyrlin? "I should have expected nothing less."
Should have. But obviously did not. Also, Siuan's full of shit. Given his newfound insights, his merely humoring her makes the most sense.

Rand isn't just counting on Egwene to oppose him. Which is only natural. Break the seals? That would free the DO. Everyone one knows if the DO breaks free, everything is doomed.
Hey, you know who DOESN'T? Anyone who read tSR! In that book it is shown that a guy who had decided to get married on the day the Bore was made and the Dark One was FIRST freed from his prison, lives long enough for his grandson to reach adulthood, and be lynched on the day the Bore is Sealed! TWO GENERATIONS PASSED and humanity turned around and did worse to the world than the Dark One managed, and that mostly through proxies like Forsaken and Shadowspawn. On the other hand, the world is slowly getting torn to pieces by all the straining on reality caused by the Dark One. How do you stop a prisoner locked in a cell from doing something? You go into the cell and stop him, which means unlocking the door first! This whole issue has long been debated and discussed in this community since the idea of breaking the Seals first occurred to Rand via LTT back in LoC, which was published in 1994. There are people operating motor vehicles today who were not born when we first started to wonder if breaking the Seals might be good idea. But all of a sudden, after the general consensus settles on "yes" because that's more or less what the books have been screaming at us ever since, Egwene comes up with baseless and groundless opposition and suddenly people are rushing off to condemn Rand's reckless behavior.

How often has a character said, "If the DO was free already, we'd all be dead!" Thus, the notion of breaking the seals sounds crazy to anyone who hasn't been inside Rand's head for the entire series. Or almost everyone (Nynaeve, Perrin, Elayne, etc). He's counting on her to be able to unite the rest of the world and get them there in less than a month. And she does deliver.
Yeah, which was my point in the original post. When he asks for Egwene's help, she sulks in a tent and drags her feet for three days. When he REALLY needs her to carry out her part in his plan for Tarmon Gaidon, when it is REALLY important that she do what he needs her to do, because that's not the kind of thing where you get second chances, then he uses reverse psychology, counting on both her reflexive opposition to anything he suggests, and her grotesquely swollen ego to think up such a self-aggrandizing way of opposing him. At his wisest and most insightful, Rand knows the best way to enlist Egwene's help is to conceal his true plan so she will enable it by trying to stop him.
Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
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It's good to be right. Especially when you see Rand list his good influences in ToM - 30/11/2011 03:24:55 PM 2218 Views
This is clearly a Sandersonism... - 01/12/2011 02:35:39 AM 1031 Views
Of course it is... - 01/12/2011 11:03:49 AM 968 Views
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Can't think of a single time that Egwene was a good friend to Rand *NM* - 01/12/2011 07:16:39 AM 540 Views
TGH, TFoH and TDR. *NM* - 01/12/2011 01:23:28 PM 466 Views
Bah, bull and pffft. - 01/12/2011 03:26:07 PM 1115 Views
Re: It's good to be right. Especially when you see Rand list his good influences in ToM - 01/12/2011 01:26:49 PM 1021 Views
In tGH he was still immature and reflexively giving props to his love interest *NM* - 01/12/2011 03:04:17 PM 563 Views
Re: In tGH he was still immature and reflexively giving props to his love interest - 03/12/2011 02:39:47 AM 972 Views
... - 03/12/2011 09:13:13 AM 985 Views
God, I can't stand Rand fanboys/girls. Some facts, please. - 02/12/2011 06:12:14 PM 1545 Views
I can't stand people who don't know stuff but act like they do. - 04/12/2011 03:23:47 AM 920 Views
Self-contradiction, much? - 04/12/2011 08:20:00 AM 1000 Views
No, just dealing with a fickle hypocrite. - 05/12/2011 04:27:32 AM 1077 Views
Re: No, just dealing with a fickle hypocrite. - 05/12/2011 10:56:17 AM 947 Views
Except somehow, Egwene always ends up opposing him on the wrong stuff - 05/12/2011 03:55:50 PM 1139 Views
Of course there's the fact that by most people's standards.... - 06/12/2011 12:31:13 PM 1113 Views
About Cadsuane... - 06/12/2011 05:22:39 PM 1172 Views
Go Egwene! - 09/12/2011 07:47:47 AM 963 Views

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