My point is that the ILLUSION of Forsaken greatness reflected the REALITY that should have been
Shannow Send a noteboard - 29/11/2011 01:58:21 PM
I get where you're coming from, but most of those moments were setups for major Foresaken downfalls...
I enjoyed a different Forsaken experience. None of my top 5 moments are on your list. In no particular order, my top 5 are:
1. Rahvin lounging in his shirtsleeves, exuding Forsaken power, confidence and sheer "aura" like some lion or tiger languidly eying its domain. In that scene he toys with an Aes Sedai, and demonstrates a casual belief in his own power that truly set the scene for how I perceived the Forsaken from Book 5 onwards.
Except his perception of control was completely invalid. He was soon to be played into painting a target on his forehead for Rand.
The scene that shows that Demandred is still unsure about the extent of the Dark One's power and clueless about his motives? How does that reflect well on Demandred?
Hmmm... this comes closer to being a cool moment, and kind of complements Graendal's later observation that perhaps he was the true danger in the Semirhage-Mesaana-Demandred trio.
This is meant as a joke right? Because Cadsuane would have been able to whup his ass while he stood clueless as to why his weaves were ineffective on this "useless" third age woman.
I agree with that one. To this I would add Graendal's observation that Rand and his Asha'man were dangerous, which was one of the rare moments of Foresaken sanity in the series.
Except that they completely fail in most ways to convince us that the Third Age "gnats" were actually as ineffective as they thought they were. Except for the few who acknowledged that the Third Agers were actual threats (coincidentally, these are the people who survive, mostly), the rest made statements that only reflect on their ignorance of the actual abilities and strengths of the people from this age. For all their superiority in the One Power, they totally failed to see that a woman barely strong enough to open a Gateway would end up completely exposing a large majority of their fellow associates, for example.
I enjoyed a different Forsaken experience. None of my top 5 moments are on your list. In no particular order, my top 5 are:
1. Rahvin lounging in his shirtsleeves, exuding Forsaken power, confidence and sheer "aura" like some lion or tiger languidly eying its domain. In that scene he toys with an Aes Sedai, and demonstrates a casual belief in his own power that truly set the scene for how I perceived the Forsaken from Book 5 onwards.
Except his perception of control was completely invalid. He was soon to be played into painting a target on his forehead for Rand.
2. Demandred at the Pit of Doom. Enough said. The single most powerful Forsaken scene in the books.
The scene that shows that Demandred is still unsure about the extent of the Dark One's power and clueless about his motives? How does that reflect well on Demandred?
3. Demandred's unconscious aura of superiority in the scene where he conveys the Lord of Chaos message to Semirhage and Mesaana. The bit where he cuts Mesaana off in mid sentence, telling her to wait until everyone was there, so that he wouldn't have to repeat himself brilliantly depicted his utter belief in his own supremacy. He considers himself so important that he feels it an imposition for anyone to expect that he should have to repeat himself.
Hmmm... this comes closer to being a cool moment, and kind of complements Graendal's later observation that perhaps he was the true danger in the Semirhage-Mesaana-Demandred trio.
4. Dashiva asking Rand if he wants him to "clear out the women". That's when Rand is abed in CoS, and the Aes Sedai are making themselves unwelcome pests as usual.
This is meant as a joke right? Because Cadsuane would have been able to whup his ass while he stood clueless as to why his weaves were ineffective on this "useless" third age woman.
5. Asmodean's reaction when Rand recalled the day Sammael was named the Destroyer of Hope, "When he betrayed the Gates of Hevan, and led the Shadow into the Rorn Mdoi and the Heart of Satelle. Hope did seem to die that day. Culan Cuhan wept."
Asmodean's reaction to that had a very powerful impact on me.
Asmodean's reaction to that had a very powerful impact on me.
I agree with that one. To this I would add Graendal's observation that Rand and his Asha'man were dangerous, which was one of the rare moments of Foresaken sanity in the series.
As can be seen, I prefer Forsaken scenes that conveyed a sense of their psychological hierarchy towards one another, or somehow juxtaposed them to the insignificant gnats from the Third Age (like Dashiva casually offering to clear out the Aes Sedai with some powerful and very painful weave, as if they are simply nuisances to be swatted aside), or else scenes that somehow gave us some insight into their abilities, attitudes or stature.
Except that they completely fail in most ways to convince us that the Third Age "gnats" were actually as ineffective as they thought they were. Except for the few who acknowledged that the Third Agers were actual threats (coincidentally, these are the people who survive, mostly), the rest made statements that only reflect on their ignorance of the actual abilities and strengths of the people from this age. For all their superiority in the One Power, they totally failed to see that a woman barely strong enough to open a Gateway would end up completely exposing a large majority of their fellow associates, for example.
These scenes I depicted portrayed the Forsaken as they SHOULD have been in reality, rather than it turning out to be a mere illusion covering their flawed natures.
Powerful HUMAN villains are always more interesting than powerful disembodied entities.
The Forsaken being the main threats to the protagonists would have created a far more gripping tale than them being mere puppets for some unknowable, disembodied voice hanging around the Pit of Doom.
You can't hate the Dark One, because he is simply too alien to understand. But you can hate a powerful human villain, because you can relate to him in a human context and in terms of human morals and values.
But the way in which the Forsaken have been portrayed makes it almost impossible to hate them, instead, you just view them as pitiful, vain losers.
And the mark of a talented author is surely the extent to which he can involve the reader on an emotional level, to love the protagonists, hate the antagonists and laugh and cry along with the characters in the story.
I felt like screaming in rage when Theon sacked Winterfell, and I hate Roose Bolton with a passion for his betrayal of the Starks.
But I can't feel more than idle amusement and disappointment at the antics of the various Forsaken in Wot.
That tells me that RJ didn't succeed in making me loathe them by drawing my emotions into the story. They are simply too stooge like for that.
So that's why I say that the times when they were displaying illusory menace, supremacy and stature were their best moments. Because it displayed the Forsaken as they should have been, if RJ had crafted them properly.
This message last edited by Shannow on 29/11/2011 at 02:00:14 PM
Cool Forsaken moments
- 21/11/2011 02:49:46 PM
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Moggy torturing Nynaeve, getting shot, and afterwards squashing Liandrin (Moggy's my favourite..) *NM*
- 21/11/2011 03:49:50 PM
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That's an oxymoron
- 21/11/2011 06:41:34 PM
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If you disagree with his choice moments then...
- 21/11/2011 07:48:04 PM
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*NM*
All the awesomest moments come from the same bad guy.
- 21/11/2011 09:20:05 PM
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You sort of have a point, that ties in to why the Forsaken suck
- 22/11/2011 03:37:14 PM
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Some thoughts.
- 22/11/2011 06:30:04 PM
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Re: Some thoughts.
- 22/11/2011 09:11:50 PM
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Re: Some thoughts.
- 22/11/2011 11:09:28 PM
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Any Cadsuane moment. *NM*
- 24/11/2011 04:45:59 AM
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Oh please! My mother is more evil by 10 A.M. than Cadsuane gets up to all day
- 24/11/2011 11:05:02 AM
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Re: Oh please! My mother is more evil by 10 A.M. than Cadsuane gets up to all day
- 30/11/2011 05:29:09 AM
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