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Re: The Duration of The Breaking Ashaman_Wannabe Send a noteboard - 27/09/2011 08:44:51 AM
Hello, fellow WoT readers,

I felt nudged by Cannoli's post (very entertaining and sense-making, as usual) and his subsequent comments to add something to the silent board.

I will start with two quotes from The Guide:

"During the worst of it, these men, who could wield the One Power to a degree now unknown, caused even the weather to rebel, and the world saw storms of unimaginable fury." (emphasis on "to a degree now unknown";)

Various fragmentary sources put the actual duration of the Breaking—that is, the major geological and climatic upheavals—at anywhere from 239 to 344 years.

I have always wondered how it could have gone on for so long, and simple logistics strongly support a much shorter time span.

First of all, the breaking was bad because it started in a time when male channelers were very well trained, had some access to angreal and worse, sa'angreal and ter'angreal, and were pretty strong in the Power (I am pretty sure centuries of channeling tradition had led to some channelers opting to only start a family with another channeler due to compatible lifespans, and a common major influence in both partners' lives, and thus the channeling genes were "concentrated" and "amplified" so to speak, resulting in stronger than average children).

So with that in mind the initial outburst that started about ten years after the Sealing - quote: "others put the real beginning as much as ten years later" was pretty devastating to civilization and infrastructure. Let us put the average remaining lifespan of an active male channeler with AoL training at ten years after first contact with the taint (and even that may be generous). Let us also assume that active recruiting and training of male sparkers and learners continued for ten years after the Sealing when it became crystal clear what the reason for the widespread insanity and following destruction was.

So that puts us at twenty (after sealing) very bad years of saidin - wrought destruction. But let's consider what those twenty years did to the infrastructure of society and the male channeling population. I keep emphasizing infrastructure, because that is what makes a male channeler dangerous - their advanced training. I think that an untrained wielder of saidin would be able to only cause a very small fraction of damage when compared to an established Aes Sedai - isolated earth tremors and some wildfires lacking scope. I think the taint madness only worked with what was already in the mind - it only twists but does not add anything new and certainly not knowledge of channeling.

So twenty after the Sealing almost every male Aes Sedai had died and no further recruiting and training was being done. That immediately brings down the male channeling population four or five-fold - because after this point only the ones with the spark would present any danger. The ones with potential to learn would certainly never get to use it. In addition, the ones causing destruction after those initial twenty years would all be untrained wilders - and three out of four of those would succumb to their inability to control saidin and be removed from the danger pool way before the taint effects kicked in. Those two factors alone reduce the danger pool sixteen to twenty times, and we have to also factor in the reduced damage potential of the untrained channelers and the general population decline.

From then on, let us give the remaining and scattered female Aes Sedai twenty to thirty years to dust themselves off, get on their feet, establish the relatively safe (geologically speaking) areas where to congregate and start organizing and protecting primitive villages. After that active seeking out and gentling of the remaining madmen could begin and with circles and some sort of supply lines, the females would have a pretty much guaranteed victory in every encounter (if two mad channelers were to encounter each other between zero and one would walk away, there is nothing to suggest that any of them banded together.)

All the above puts the total duration of the Breaking at sixty to seventy years tops and that may still be generous. I would love to hear your thoughts on this.


There are a few problems I have with your analysis of the fighting. First of all, the guide refers to the fighting between the survivors of the Light and Shadow. This was when Latra Posae won her acclaim - if she is the pre-incarnation of Egwene, I'm sure it was by taking credit for the work others did to combat the surviving Shadowspawn, Darkfriends and Forsaken, as well as protect people from the depredations of bandits and the like. In any event, there was a LOT for Aes Sedai to do in those days. RJ said in a QotW answer that in some places during the War of the Shadow they were down to swords and axes and horses levels of tech from the damage to the infrastructure. With all this in mind, people would have been trying to get things up and running and in the first place, might not have noticed the insanity or realized the odd madman they encountered was part of a universal epidemic. So with all that was going on, it probably took a while to catch up the male channeler problem. Thus, it would have had time to pick up momentum and become all but insurmountable, rather than sane and well-equipped female Aes Sedai having the advantage over their brothers. It more likely caught a lot of them by surprise, and did even more damage to the surviving sisters before they started working with a plan or a strategy to deal with the crisis.

Secondly, they did not grasp the entirety of the problem - for those sisters, it was not as simple as round 'em up and gentle or kill them. Initially, they tried to help their one-time brothers (and don't forget there were still-sane males on their side, which would have impeded any serious consideration of a such a drastic solution). They would have first tried reasoning with the madmen or subduing them without causing harm (not least because they'd want to try to study the taint and see what they were dealing with). Such efforts would have led to reduced success on the part of the Aes Sedai. Look at Verin during the Cleansing - she got greedy and tried to capture Graendal, hungry for the knowledge and other advantages to be gained from such a captive, and as a result, her initial strike failed. She did not take into account how difficult Graendal would be to shield with an angreal. Had she blasted the Forsaken with all she had, Graendal would not have had the innate and passive defense that overwhelming strength is to a shield - even if she did not die, it would have been because she would have had to take measures to counter Verin's attack, and thus surrendered the initiative right back, which might have saved Verin's fellow Brown. This scenario no doubt played itself out many many times in the years after the Sealing, with sisters trying and failing to corral their insane brethren only to see even more woe when their initial efforts proved insufficient.

Third is the fact that the madness seems to take an invariably malicious nature, as to be expected from something caused by the Dark One. Both of the contemporary madmen we see support this. One is inspired to start tearing apart a building for materials to protect his charge assigned right before he slipped, and the other sees non-existent Myrdraal everywhere - lashing out at them would have been the next step. Thus the reflexive view of madmen as incompetent and easy victims is probably also flawed. In their minds they had good and specific reasons for the various acts of destruction they wrought, they were not simply flailing around at random. They would have been driven to destroy and harm as many as possible, which probably made it even harder for the sisters to track or catch them. I would bet that not a lot of them wandered into open manholes or blew themselves up without harming anyone else.

For reasons like these, I strongly doubt they went down as easily as you suggest or that their immediate successors without training were as inept and relatively harmless as the typical untrained channeler. As I said, this madness is not mundane mental incompetence or errors in judgement, it is a malicious distortion of rational perceptions by the Dark One's touch. It would not surprise me at all for a guy who went through his early adulthood only unconsciously touching the Source when he needed something direly, until he went mad, to suddenly consciously, deliberately and maliciously use the Power to much greater effect.

On the other hand, what I do have a problem with is the fact of human survival in the extremes of geographical upheaval and climate fluctuations. "Where the food" comes from is a frequently neglected detail in WoT, despite the lip service paid in the main characters' immediate storylines. Background stuff like where the Tinkers get theirs (their studious avoidance of settled people argues against obtaining it all through trade, and IIRC they don't eat meat, so it's not as if their food accompanies them on the hoof) tends to be neglected. In this case, the description of the rapid and extreme changes argues against any kind of serious efforts at agriculture, not to mention mass extinctions as niche animals struggle to adapt to new climates, while lacking the rational faculties to adjust. If issues like that can be surmounted, the supply of male channelers is relatively minor.


I messed up posting my response which the reason for the stupid NM post, I apologize.

I'll have to re-type from memory, so here goes:

You make very good point but even with all of them being correct, I think the duration of cataclysmic destruction would have been closer to what I propose than the two to three and a half centuries stated by the BWB.

I admit I may have been overly optimistic about the sane Aes Sedai's drive to search and destroy their counterpatrs but I still gave them fifty years post sealing to get there (which period of time would include the attempts to help, contain and research). After that, though, enough experience may have accumulated to give most the Red Ajah mentality.

Your point about there being a twisted method to taint madness is excellent and one I had overlooked. However, even with it factored in the analysis, I believe there is still a wide range of outcomes. Remember that guy in the Black Tower who started screaming about spiders crawling all over him? Since, as far as we know, one is unable to channel at their own body, who is to say that if left unchecked, that man would not have started a fire and thrown himself in to "burn the spiders". That is pretty much the same as wondering into a manhole (even though there's a method to it).

As for the damage capacity of the untrained sparkers, there are no direct examples in the text that either you or I could use other than Jordan's favorite hearsay, so it could go either way. In defense of my POV, in your own thought exercise you say "unconsciously touching the Source" (emphasis on unconsciously). From Rand's experiences we know that even seizing and holding saidin at will is a challenge for the untrained. I don't think the taint helps with that. In addition, the untrained Rand in the beginning of tDR certainly had malicious intent towards the Shadowspawn attacking his camp, yet all he managed was setting some trees on fire. Both Fedwin and Naeff from your examples had some degree of training that enabled them to act on their crazy visions.

My main argument about a shorter Breaking is centered around the rapid and irreversible decline of damage-capable male channeling population once active recruiting and training stopped. As far as I can tell, you did not address that other than saying that male channelers were in good supply, because Jordan wanted it that way. That statement trumps all my deliberations, but hey, most posters here have tried to poke at the world's consistency for fun or for argument's sake. I am doing the same.

In my view, the actual destruction lasted sixty to seventy followed by a post breaking coma for civilization that lasted a couple of centuries (akin to the dark ages).
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The Duration of The Breaking - 26/09/2011 01:47:16 AM 889 Views
Re: The Duration of The Breaking - 26/09/2011 02:49:22 PM 689 Views
Re: The Duration of The Breaking - 27/09/2011 08:44:51 AM 539 Views
Re: The Duration of The Breaking *NM* - 27/09/2011 08:03:15 AM 219 Views
Channelers are very powerful & can do large-scale damage that lasts a long time - 27/09/2011 04:06:00 PM 661 Views

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