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Re: No, just the most heinous criminals imaginable fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 22/09/2009 10:49:58 PM

Which means that the mind of the criminal in that situation is superior.

But that is the case here. Can you give me proof that Rand has consistently outsmarted the Forsaken? He was stumped by Asmodean, but got back by screwing up Lanfear's plans. That's the only case where Rand outsmarted the Forsaken, as far as I can see.
According to who? You? A crime kingpin has to actually be pretty clever to avoid jail over a long period of time. It's all the idiots who get caught.

But crime kingpins are not immune to idiocies, and at a general level, don't have to contend with ta'veren.
Take ta'veren out of the eqation, and then tell me that the Forsaken plans are idiotic. They are not.
The relative concept is what's important, not the true value. In the Forsaken's case, Rand is not a genius. It seems that the best from the AOL were rather mediocre indeed if a farmer can outsmart them.

But how many times has he actually outsmarted them? Rhidean is the only one I can think of.
The Cleansing, maybe, but he had a great deal of help there.
Even the Forsaken don't care about these things despite the fact that they are atrocities. They don't speak about how profound the chaos is in Ilian or Seanchan. All they care about is Rand - and they've caused him minimal inconvenience. Of all the Forsaken, Asmodean has done the most damage by firing up Couladin as a potential Car'acarn, which seriously diverted Rand for a prolonged period. Elayne basically walked into an undamaged Andor despite the 'destruction' of Rahvin - she'll get the place cleaned up in a few months. The same can be said of Ilian and Tear despite the two male Forsaken's best efforts. Semirhage caused true chaos and plunged Seanchan into anarchy - but that actually helped the Dragon Reborn more than anything else.

The Forsaken don't care? Graendal is boasting of the chaos she created in Shara and Arad Doman. Mesaana is damn proud of the infighting in the Tower. Sammael was quite exuberant at the chaos he caused by sending the Shaido forth, etc. By no means do they not care about the chaos and loss they have created.
And what if they don't think its a great achievement? Its the effect on the light that matters, not what they think.
And as for any effect on Rand... you forget... it was the Forsaken who removed Siuan (a pro-Rand Amyrlin) and out Elaida in her place. It was Mesaana who engineered Rand's capture and the resultant distrust he has of Aes Sedai. Halima and Mesaana have been keeping the Rebellion from ending and Ishamael was the architect of the whole Seanchan problem, which is currently the greatest inconvenience Rand has.
Though we don't know who, it was a Fosaken who created the problem of Masema, and Taim is their work as well.
They've caused a load of problems for Rand.

If Hitler's only goal was to kill Churchill, my point would be entirely appropriate. The Forsaken are not there to perform atrocities, they are there to defeat the Light, which means that they only have to kill Rand al'Thor and they've won. Not only can they not kill him, they can't even kill his friends. Not even one.

How certain are you that killing Rand will cement the Shadow's victory? Because people who've been at it for a long time are not so certain.
More importantly, given that he is ta'veren, it is very possible that the Shadow's strategy is the best. Use him for as long as possible to generate chaos, and when that chaos has sufficiently damaged the Wheel's ability to cover for Rand's absence, strike at him.
In which case, they're right on course for ultimate success.
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TGS Prologue - your thoughts (part 2) *spoilers* Sidious - 16/09/2009 04:55:21 AM 3263 Views
Where can i find it at? Can someone give me a link? *NM* Blaine - 18/09/2009 02:21:10 AM 214 Views
mobipocket.com NaClH2O - 18/09/2009 02:53:13 AM 662 Views
Thanks, It was interesting especially the last part of the prologue *NM* Blaine - 20/09/2009 02:42:28 AM 265 Views
Yep, to be truthful I really didn't see that coming. *NM* NaClH2O - 20/09/2009 03:03:12 AM 211 Views
A pointless survey - take your guess at who wrote what of the Prologue ajfurst - 18/09/2009 01:30:24 PM 564 Views
As short as the prologue was Ryan - 18/09/2009 04:27:54 PM 572 Views
Re: A pointless survey - take your guess at who wrote what of the Prologue Seriana Sedai - 18/09/2009 07:08:43 PM 437 Views
How do you think this prologue compares to the previous ones? RandAllThor - 18/09/2009 01:52:59 PM 528 Views
Did only the audiobook ppl get the 2:30 of Harriet at the end? Lanfear - 18/09/2009 03:07:27 PM 559 Views
nope and now I hate you *NM* NaClH2O - 18/09/2009 04:59:48 PM 305 Views
The interview BlackAdder - 18/09/2009 09:40:23 PM 590 Views
The prologue gives us strong evidence that Graendal is weaker than Demi or Semi Lanfear - 18/09/2009 03:55:58 PM 642 Views
I'm a little surprised nobody is discussing this. I thought this would get more attention. *NM* Lanfear - 20/09/2009 09:17:57 PM 318 Views
Well, Lanfear... fionwe1987 - 20/09/2009 11:33:22 PM 616 Views
Is it me or do the Forsaken seem more viscious? Ryan - 18/09/2009 04:17:22 PM 631 Views
yep, leaner and meaner...except for mesaana-she's still twitchy after shadar haran *NM* NaClH2O - 18/09/2009 05:09:29 PM 315 Views
You blame her? *NM* Ryan - 18/09/2009 08:05:46 PM 252 Views
Not at all, I'd be more than "twitchy" if that happened to me NaClH2O - 19/09/2009 12:00:57 AM 514 Views
I get the feeling they want to jump ship Sidious - 19/09/2009 02:13:51 PM 585 Views
Trollocs! NaClH2O - 18/09/2009 05:35:12 PM 635 Views
Why not a gray man then? Rurouni_Kenshin - 18/09/2009 07:52:55 PM 649 Views
I'm going to guess it was Demandred Ryan - 18/09/2009 08:12:19 PM 586 Views
What Cache is in Ebou Dar? NaClH2O - 19/09/2009 12:05:05 AM 613 Views
Because they wanted to destroy as much of the force as possible NaClH2O - 19/09/2009 12:07:57 AM 521 Views
But there's no plausible deniability Rurouni_Kenshin - 19/09/2009 12:50:42 AM 567 Views
But even several grey men or slayer aren't going to get the deed done NaClH2O - 19/09/2009 02:28:36 AM 591 Views
Why? Rurouni_Kenshin - 19/09/2009 03:25:34 AM 503 Views
simple answer:scouts redhand - 19/09/2009 04:47:04 AM 525 Views
What day is it? Are the Suldam & Damane in the area? Rurouni_Kenshin - 19/09/2009 05:32:54 PM 474 Views
Who is Graendal going to wack? NaClH2O - 18/09/2009 06:00:12 PM 596 Views
I think it could be Tam. *NM* MikeyMikeyMikey - 18/09/2009 06:05:12 PM 281 Views
Great idea. Seriana Sedai - 18/09/2009 07:12:40 PM 555 Views
Its about time for Perrin to reunite with Rand he's got Faile back Ryan - 18/09/2009 08:15:47 PM 534 Views
Re: Its about time for Perrin to reunite with Rand he's got Faile back PatAtt - 18/09/2009 10:41:12 PM 546 Views
No one. Terez - 23/09/2009 02:05:06 AM 466 Views
A possibility, but... NaClH2O - 23/09/2009 11:53:07 AM 515 Views
Well, yeah... Terez - 23/09/2009 04:02:47 PM 503 Views
Isn't it obvious...Semirhage sent the Trollocs Lanfear - 18/09/2009 06:38:15 PM 643 Views
Fades are smart enough though Rurouni_Kenshin - 18/09/2009 07:54:02 PM 487 Views
Mesaana's statement gives us a big clue about Demandred's and Moridin's whereabouts Lanfear - 18/09/2009 09:11:49 PM 690 Views
Or PatAtt - 18/09/2009 10:38:52 PM 667 Views
My first thought was Great Lord of Chaos - 19/09/2009 02:20:39 AM 539 Views
My favorite quote: "Who will win? The child or the fool?" - Graendal BlackAdder - 18/09/2009 09:48:55 PM 651 Views
*NM* AliasRY - 19/09/2009 04:20:29 AM 357 Views
but she didn't say 'the fool or the fool' Sidious - 19/09/2009 02:07:20 PM 555 Views
Yes, because Cannoli has long valued the opinions of the Forsaken... Cannoli - 20/09/2009 06:10:58 AM 614 Views
Lol *NM* Sidious - 20/09/2009 08:26:53 AM 485 Views
Forsaken Chapter Shannow - 18/09/2009 10:30:10 PM 615 Views
I agree that Graendal will die in this book.... her and A'rangar *NM* Matrimony Cauthon - 19/09/2009 08:14:07 AM 259 Views
Re: Forsaken Chapter AgentOrange - 19/09/2009 09:53:31 AM 643 Views
Wrong... Shannow - 19/09/2009 01:41:25 PM 671 Views
I think we'll have to agree to disagree. BlackAdder - 19/09/2009 09:22:38 PM 690 Views
Huh Sidious - 19/09/2009 01:46:21 PM 750 Views
Re: Huh Shannow - 19/09/2009 02:21:43 PM 654 Views
Re: Huh Sidious - 19/09/2009 04:32:50 PM 672 Views
Fair enough... Shannow - 19/09/2009 05:08:33 PM 595 Views
Re: Forsaken Chapter BlackAdder - 19/09/2009 05:40:14 PM 524 Views
No, see my response to Agent Orange above. *NM* Shannow - 19/09/2009 06:07:14 PM 230 Views
Remove your blinders man... fionwe1987 - 19/09/2009 07:16:03 PM 663 Views
After third reread StinkerSkunk - 18/09/2009 10:58:12 PM 590 Views
Ituralde's plan ajfurst - 19/09/2009 02:04:58 PM 505 Views
Huh....hadn't thought about that AliasRY - 19/09/2009 03:07:06 PM 612 Views
This makes perfect sense The Dude - 22/09/2009 07:35:49 PM 513 Views
Various comments Etzel - 19/09/2009 05:38:21 PM 635 Views
The Dying Man Rurouni_Kenshin - 19/09/2009 06:48:09 PM 577 Views
Yeah, I thought it was Dobraine as well Matrimony Cauthon - 19/09/2009 08:30:13 PM 592 Views
Dobraine seems unlikely... Etzel - 20/09/2009 11:30:45 AM 482 Views
Symbolism Rurouni_Kenshin - 20/09/2009 04:10:53 PM 461 Views
After a reread I think I know who sent the Trollocs Matrimony Cauthon - 19/09/2009 08:28:08 PM 542 Views
That is a really stupid idea Guava - 20/09/2009 01:20:09 AM 506 Views
Yeah Sidious - 20/09/2009 08:24:18 AM 502 Views
Another reason why Moridin is not Taim Matrimony Cauthon - 19/09/2009 08:41:03 PM 525 Views
This isn't evidence. Yvves - 19/09/2009 08:51:54 PM 638 Views
It isn't evidence, but it is another perspective to add to the table Matrimony Cauthon - 19/09/2009 09:11:15 PM 435 Views
Personally, I disagree. Digital_Eon - 20/09/2009 03:22:24 AM 536 Views
Do you think Moridin is struggling like Rand is? Sidious - 19/09/2009 10:24:45 PM 450 Views
Re: Do you think Moridin is struggling like Rand is? Heiko - 19/09/2009 11:29:36 PM 525 Views
Why is Moridin and not Demandred marshalling the Dark Forces in the Blight? Shannow - 19/09/2009 10:35:06 PM 522 Views
I think there are many issues here Sidious - 19/09/2009 10:51:13 PM 631 Views
The Malign Influence of the Forsaken Rurouni_Kenshin - 19/09/2009 11:08:00 PM 542 Views
I have doubts about that degree of conversion Sidious - 19/09/2009 11:17:44 PM 480 Views
Its a stretch, but... Heiko - 19/09/2009 11:34:28 PM 433 Views
I thought about that Sidious - 20/09/2009 08:26:02 AM 476 Views
Levee en Masse Rurouni_Kenshin - 19/09/2009 10:51:54 PM 547 Views
Re: Why is Moridin and not Demandred marshalling the Dark Forces in the Blight? Curie - 20/09/2009 09:44:06 AM 616 Views
I think Demendred might take over though AgentOrange - 20/09/2009 05:10:08 PM 434 Views
Did Demandred make the connection between Moridin's phantom hand-pain and Semirhage's firebolt? Shannow - 20/09/2009 12:11:32 PM 628 Views
I don't think that Demandred will be a key player at the end with Rand Sidious - 20/09/2009 01:00:58 PM 585 Views
Some sweeping statements there... Shannow - 20/09/2009 01:21:46 PM 577 Views
Not at all Sidious - 20/09/2009 03:34:59 PM 599 Views
A lot of twisting my words there, and direct contradictions of your own points... Shannow - 20/09/2009 04:19:57 PM 603 Views
Not really Sidious - 20/09/2009 05:12:42 PM 671 Views
I couldn't have summarized it better myself... Shannow - 20/09/2009 05:25:56 PM 495 Views
But... fionwe1987 - 20/09/2009 06:01:33 PM 594 Views
Possible... Shannow - 20/09/2009 06:08:21 PM 508 Views
So that's your argument now? fionwe1987 - 20/09/2009 07:35:52 PM 426 Views
I think you took that the wrong way... Shannow - 20/09/2009 08:53:28 PM 513 Views
Its simply, really. Heiko - 20/09/2009 09:05:42 PM 524 Views
Hmmm... fionwe1987 - 20/09/2009 11:10:04 PM 553 Views
Fair enough... Shannow - 20/09/2009 11:12:53 PM 424 Views
Sure. *NM* fionwe1987 - 20/09/2009 11:25:50 PM 254 Views
Wow, then I think you're in for a surprise Sidious - 20/09/2009 08:38:37 PM 489 Views
Well Heiko - 20/09/2009 08:56:43 PM 566 Views
Re: Well Sidious - 20/09/2009 09:40:51 PM 647 Views
Re: Wow, then I think you're in for a surprise Rurouni_Kenshin - 20/09/2009 09:07:48 PM 480 Views
Just a general comment... Shannow - 20/09/2009 09:13:51 PM 644 Views
Re: Just a general comment... Sidious - 20/09/2009 09:59:51 PM 1455 Views
Re: Just a general comment... Shannow - 20/09/2009 10:19:14 PM 456 Views
Re: Just a general comment... Sidious - 21/09/2009 04:58:38 AM 412 Views
I reject the cult of the "cool" villain. fionwe1987 - 20/09/2009 11:24:40 PM 531 Views
I don't really agree Sidious - 21/09/2009 05:02:10 AM 480 Views
But these aren't criminals... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2009 05:47:40 AM 411 Views
No, just the most heinous criminals imaginable Sidious - 21/09/2009 12:43:19 PM 619 Views
Re: No, just the most heinous criminals imaginable fionwe1987 - 22/09/2009 10:49:58 PM 542 Views
Doubt it... Etzel - 20/09/2009 02:10:37 PM 592 Views
I tend to agree with you, this time. AgentOrange - 20/09/2009 05:05:35 PM 481 Views
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