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Re: No, just the most heinous criminals imaginable fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 22/09/2009 10:49:58 PM

Which means that the mind of the criminal in that situation is superior.

But that is the case here. Can you give me proof that Rand has consistently outsmarted the Forsaken? He was stumped by Asmodean, but got back by screwing up Lanfear's plans. That's the only case where Rand outsmarted the Forsaken, as far as I can see.
According to who? You? A crime kingpin has to actually be pretty clever to avoid jail over a long period of time. It's all the idiots who get caught.

But crime kingpins are not immune to idiocies, and at a general level, don't have to contend with ta'veren.
Take ta'veren out of the eqation, and then tell me that the Forsaken plans are idiotic. They are not.
The relative concept is what's important, not the true value. In the Forsaken's case, Rand is not a genius. It seems that the best from the AOL were rather mediocre indeed if a farmer can outsmart them.

But how many times has he actually outsmarted them? Rhidean is the only one I can think of.
The Cleansing, maybe, but he had a great deal of help there.
Even the Forsaken don't care about these things despite the fact that they are atrocities. They don't speak about how profound the chaos is in Ilian or Seanchan. All they care about is Rand - and they've caused him minimal inconvenience. Of all the Forsaken, Asmodean has done the most damage by firing up Couladin as a potential Car'acarn, which seriously diverted Rand for a prolonged period. Elayne basically walked into an undamaged Andor despite the 'destruction' of Rahvin - she'll get the place cleaned up in a few months. The same can be said of Ilian and Tear despite the two male Forsaken's best efforts. Semirhage caused true chaos and plunged Seanchan into anarchy - but that actually helped the Dragon Reborn more than anything else.

The Forsaken don't care? Graendal is boasting of the chaos she created in Shara and Arad Doman. Mesaana is damn proud of the infighting in the Tower. Sammael was quite exuberant at the chaos he caused by sending the Shaido forth, etc. By no means do they not care about the chaos and loss they have created.
And what if they don't think its a great achievement? Its the effect on the light that matters, not what they think.
And as for any effect on Rand... you forget... it was the Forsaken who removed Siuan (a pro-Rand Amyrlin) and out Elaida in her place. It was Mesaana who engineered Rand's capture and the resultant distrust he has of Aes Sedai. Halima and Mesaana have been keeping the Rebellion from ending and Ishamael was the architect of the whole Seanchan problem, which is currently the greatest inconvenience Rand has.
Though we don't know who, it was a Fosaken who created the problem of Masema, and Taim is their work as well.
They've caused a load of problems for Rand.

If Hitler's only goal was to kill Churchill, my point would be entirely appropriate. The Forsaken are not there to perform atrocities, they are there to defeat the Light, which means that they only have to kill Rand al'Thor and they've won. Not only can they not kill him, they can't even kill his friends. Not even one.

How certain are you that killing Rand will cement the Shadow's victory? Because people who've been at it for a long time are not so certain.
More importantly, given that he is ta'veren, it is very possible that the Shadow's strategy is the best. Use him for as long as possible to generate chaos, and when that chaos has sufficiently damaged the Wheel's ability to cover for Rand's absence, strike at him.
In which case, they're right on course for ultimate success.
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TGS Prologue - your thoughts (part 2) *spoilers* Sidious - 16/09/2009 04:55:21 AM 3268 Views
Where can i find it at? Can someone give me a link? *NM* Blaine - 18/09/2009 02:21:10 AM 215 Views
mobipocket.com NaClH2O - 18/09/2009 02:53:13 AM 667 Views
Thanks, It was interesting especially the last part of the prologue *NM* Blaine - 20/09/2009 02:42:28 AM 265 Views
Yep, to be truthful I really didn't see that coming. *NM* NaClH2O - 20/09/2009 03:03:12 AM 213 Views
A pointless survey - take your guess at who wrote what of the Prologue ajfurst - 18/09/2009 01:30:24 PM 568 Views
As short as the prologue was Ryan - 18/09/2009 04:27:54 PM 576 Views
Re: A pointless survey - take your guess at who wrote what of the Prologue Seriana Sedai - 18/09/2009 07:08:43 PM 442 Views
How do you think this prologue compares to the previous ones? RandAllThor - 18/09/2009 01:52:59 PM 532 Views
Did only the audiobook ppl get the 2:30 of Harriet at the end? Lanfear - 18/09/2009 03:07:27 PM 566 Views
nope and now I hate you *NM* NaClH2O - 18/09/2009 04:59:48 PM 307 Views
The interview BlackAdder - 18/09/2009 09:40:23 PM 595 Views
The prologue gives us strong evidence that Graendal is weaker than Demi or Semi Lanfear - 18/09/2009 03:55:58 PM 647 Views
I'm a little surprised nobody is discussing this. I thought this would get more attention. *NM* Lanfear - 20/09/2009 09:17:57 PM 319 Views
Well, Lanfear... fionwe1987 - 20/09/2009 11:33:22 PM 620 Views
Is it me or do the Forsaken seem more viscious? Ryan - 18/09/2009 04:17:22 PM 636 Views
yep, leaner and meaner...except for mesaana-she's still twitchy after shadar haran *NM* NaClH2O - 18/09/2009 05:09:29 PM 316 Views
You blame her? *NM* Ryan - 18/09/2009 08:05:46 PM 254 Views
Not at all, I'd be more than "twitchy" if that happened to me NaClH2O - 19/09/2009 12:00:57 AM 519 Views
I get the feeling they want to jump ship Sidious - 19/09/2009 02:13:51 PM 588 Views
Trollocs! NaClH2O - 18/09/2009 05:35:12 PM 639 Views
Why not a gray man then? Rurouni_Kenshin - 18/09/2009 07:52:55 PM 654 Views
I'm going to guess it was Demandred Ryan - 18/09/2009 08:12:19 PM 591 Views
What Cache is in Ebou Dar? NaClH2O - 19/09/2009 12:05:05 AM 618 Views
Because they wanted to destroy as much of the force as possible NaClH2O - 19/09/2009 12:07:57 AM 523 Views
But there's no plausible deniability Rurouni_Kenshin - 19/09/2009 12:50:42 AM 571 Views
But even several grey men or slayer aren't going to get the deed done NaClH2O - 19/09/2009 02:28:36 AM 595 Views
Why? Rurouni_Kenshin - 19/09/2009 03:25:34 AM 509 Views
simple answer:scouts redhand - 19/09/2009 04:47:04 AM 529 Views
What day is it? Are the Suldam & Damane in the area? Rurouni_Kenshin - 19/09/2009 05:32:54 PM 479 Views
Who is Graendal going to wack? NaClH2O - 18/09/2009 06:00:12 PM 600 Views
I think it could be Tam. *NM* MikeyMikeyMikey - 18/09/2009 06:05:12 PM 282 Views
Great idea. Seriana Sedai - 18/09/2009 07:12:40 PM 558 Views
Its about time for Perrin to reunite with Rand he's got Faile back Ryan - 18/09/2009 08:15:47 PM 538 Views
Re: Its about time for Perrin to reunite with Rand he's got Faile back PatAtt - 18/09/2009 10:41:12 PM 551 Views
No one. Terez - 23/09/2009 02:05:06 AM 471 Views
A possibility, but... NaClH2O - 23/09/2009 11:53:07 AM 519 Views
Well, yeah... Terez - 23/09/2009 04:02:47 PM 506 Views
Isn't it obvious...Semirhage sent the Trollocs Lanfear - 18/09/2009 06:38:15 PM 648 Views
Fades are smart enough though Rurouni_Kenshin - 18/09/2009 07:54:02 PM 492 Views
Mesaana's statement gives us a big clue about Demandred's and Moridin's whereabouts Lanfear - 18/09/2009 09:11:49 PM 694 Views
Or PatAtt - 18/09/2009 10:38:52 PM 672 Views
My first thought was Great Lord of Chaos - 19/09/2009 02:20:39 AM 544 Views
My favorite quote: "Who will win? The child or the fool?" - Graendal BlackAdder - 18/09/2009 09:48:55 PM 655 Views
*NM* AliasRY - 19/09/2009 04:20:29 AM 357 Views
but she didn't say 'the fool or the fool' Sidious - 19/09/2009 02:07:20 PM 559 Views
Yes, because Cannoli has long valued the opinions of the Forsaken... Cannoli - 20/09/2009 06:10:58 AM 618 Views
Lol *NM* Sidious - 20/09/2009 08:26:53 AM 489 Views
Forsaken Chapter Shannow - 18/09/2009 10:30:10 PM 620 Views
I agree that Graendal will die in this book.... her and A'rangar *NM* Matrimony Cauthon - 19/09/2009 08:14:07 AM 259 Views
Re: Forsaken Chapter AgentOrange - 19/09/2009 09:53:31 AM 647 Views
Wrong... Shannow - 19/09/2009 01:41:25 PM 675 Views
I think we'll have to agree to disagree. BlackAdder - 19/09/2009 09:22:38 PM 694 Views
Huh Sidious - 19/09/2009 01:46:21 PM 754 Views
Re: Huh Shannow - 19/09/2009 02:21:43 PM 657 Views
Re: Huh Sidious - 19/09/2009 04:32:50 PM 677 Views
Fair enough... Shannow - 19/09/2009 05:08:33 PM 599 Views
Re: Forsaken Chapter BlackAdder - 19/09/2009 05:40:14 PM 530 Views
No, see my response to Agent Orange above. *NM* Shannow - 19/09/2009 06:07:14 PM 231 Views
Remove your blinders man... fionwe1987 - 19/09/2009 07:16:03 PM 668 Views
After third reread StinkerSkunk - 18/09/2009 10:58:12 PM 598 Views
Ituralde's plan ajfurst - 19/09/2009 02:04:58 PM 509 Views
Huh....hadn't thought about that AliasRY - 19/09/2009 03:07:06 PM 615 Views
This makes perfect sense The Dude - 22/09/2009 07:35:49 PM 517 Views
Various comments Etzel - 19/09/2009 05:38:21 PM 639 Views
The Dying Man Rurouni_Kenshin - 19/09/2009 06:48:09 PM 581 Views
Yeah, I thought it was Dobraine as well Matrimony Cauthon - 19/09/2009 08:30:13 PM 596 Views
Dobraine seems unlikely... Etzel - 20/09/2009 11:30:45 AM 487 Views
Symbolism Rurouni_Kenshin - 20/09/2009 04:10:53 PM 466 Views
After a reread I think I know who sent the Trollocs Matrimony Cauthon - 19/09/2009 08:28:08 PM 547 Views
That is a really stupid idea Guava - 20/09/2009 01:20:09 AM 510 Views
Yeah Sidious - 20/09/2009 08:24:18 AM 508 Views
Another reason why Moridin is not Taim Matrimony Cauthon - 19/09/2009 08:41:03 PM 530 Views
This isn't evidence. Yvves - 19/09/2009 08:51:54 PM 643 Views
It isn't evidence, but it is another perspective to add to the table Matrimony Cauthon - 19/09/2009 09:11:15 PM 439 Views
Personally, I disagree. Digital_Eon - 20/09/2009 03:22:24 AM 540 Views
Do you think Moridin is struggling like Rand is? Sidious - 19/09/2009 10:24:45 PM 453 Views
Re: Do you think Moridin is struggling like Rand is? Heiko - 19/09/2009 11:29:36 PM 529 Views
Why is Moridin and not Demandred marshalling the Dark Forces in the Blight? Shannow - 19/09/2009 10:35:06 PM 526 Views
I think there are many issues here Sidious - 19/09/2009 10:51:13 PM 635 Views
The Malign Influence of the Forsaken Rurouni_Kenshin - 19/09/2009 11:08:00 PM 547 Views
I have doubts about that degree of conversion Sidious - 19/09/2009 11:17:44 PM 484 Views
Its a stretch, but... Heiko - 19/09/2009 11:34:28 PM 439 Views
I thought about that Sidious - 20/09/2009 08:26:02 AM 481 Views
Levee en Masse Rurouni_Kenshin - 19/09/2009 10:51:54 PM 551 Views
Re: Why is Moridin and not Demandred marshalling the Dark Forces in the Blight? Curie - 20/09/2009 09:44:06 AM 619 Views
I think Demendred might take over though AgentOrange - 20/09/2009 05:10:08 PM 440 Views
Did Demandred make the connection between Moridin's phantom hand-pain and Semirhage's firebolt? Shannow - 20/09/2009 12:11:32 PM 632 Views
I don't think that Demandred will be a key player at the end with Rand Sidious - 20/09/2009 01:00:58 PM 590 Views
Some sweeping statements there... Shannow - 20/09/2009 01:21:46 PM 580 Views
Not at all Sidious - 20/09/2009 03:34:59 PM 603 Views
A lot of twisting my words there, and direct contradictions of your own points... Shannow - 20/09/2009 04:19:57 PM 611 Views
Not really Sidious - 20/09/2009 05:12:42 PM 674 Views
I couldn't have summarized it better myself... Shannow - 20/09/2009 05:25:56 PM 500 Views
But... fionwe1987 - 20/09/2009 06:01:33 PM 600 Views
Possible... Shannow - 20/09/2009 06:08:21 PM 512 Views
So that's your argument now? fionwe1987 - 20/09/2009 07:35:52 PM 431 Views
I think you took that the wrong way... Shannow - 20/09/2009 08:53:28 PM 517 Views
Its simply, really. Heiko - 20/09/2009 09:05:42 PM 529 Views
Hmmm... fionwe1987 - 20/09/2009 11:10:04 PM 559 Views
Fair enough... Shannow - 20/09/2009 11:12:53 PM 428 Views
Sure. *NM* fionwe1987 - 20/09/2009 11:25:50 PM 254 Views
Wow, then I think you're in for a surprise Sidious - 20/09/2009 08:38:37 PM 494 Views
Well Heiko - 20/09/2009 08:56:43 PM 573 Views
Re: Well Sidious - 20/09/2009 09:40:51 PM 650 Views
Re: Wow, then I think you're in for a surprise Rurouni_Kenshin - 20/09/2009 09:07:48 PM 486 Views
Just a general comment... Shannow - 20/09/2009 09:13:51 PM 650 Views
Re: Just a general comment... Sidious - 20/09/2009 09:59:51 PM 1459 Views
Re: Just a general comment... Shannow - 20/09/2009 10:19:14 PM 460 Views
Re: Just a general comment... Sidious - 21/09/2009 04:58:38 AM 415 Views
I reject the cult of the "cool" villain. fionwe1987 - 20/09/2009 11:24:40 PM 533 Views
I don't really agree Sidious - 21/09/2009 05:02:10 AM 483 Views
But these aren't criminals... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2009 05:47:40 AM 416 Views
No, just the most heinous criminals imaginable Sidious - 21/09/2009 12:43:19 PM 624 Views
Re: No, just the most heinous criminals imaginable fionwe1987 - 22/09/2009 10:49:58 PM 547 Views
Doubt it... Etzel - 20/09/2009 02:10:37 PM 596 Views
I tend to agree with you, this time. AgentOrange - 20/09/2009 05:05:35 PM 485 Views
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