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Re: Oh, I wasn't criticizing this phenomenom, just noting it. Seriana Sedai Send a noteboard - 21/09/2009 06:59:36 PM
Throughout the world of WoT, we see many examples of female domination or excessive "equality." These range from the requirement that all rulers of Andor be female, with no corresponding nation with a similar gender restriction (aside from Tarabon which has its own custom making up for that), to the Sea Folk ships which are only captained by women, thus leading to exclusively female political leadership, to police-state gynarchy of Far Madding, to the violent enforcement of female prerogatives in Ebou Dar, to the various divisions of power and authority along gender lines in many nations which effectively ensures that women cannot be excluded from the inner circles of leadership or administration. For the most part, such responsibilities fall under domestice spheres, which, while less glamorous, encompass greater power. As a comparison, imagine the duties of the cabinet of the US executive branch of government divided up between two officials. Official A gets the authority of the Secretary of State and the Secretary of Defense, and Offical B gets EVERYTHING ELSE. Sure, Offical A gets the two that are generally the best known, and among the two most important, but thats a power division of 90/10 in favor of Official B. In most WoT divisions of power, Offical A is what the man does, while Official B is the woman. The King of Tarabon is A, the Panarch is B. The Sailmistress is A, the Cargomaster is B (only without SecState, and SecCommerce instead). The Mayor is A, the Wisdom is B. The Clan Chief is A, the roofmistress is B. The shambayan is A, the shatayan is B (unless it's the other way around). Master Norry is A (without the SecDef) and Mistress Harfor is B. And in other ways, the gender imbalance, no matter the de facto status of theoretical equality, reverts to the female too often. Whenever RJ has two people of the same class or profession appear (unless there is a specific gender-related issue at hand), one is a man and the other a woman, and the more dominant, sympathetic, capable/dangerous or benevolent of the two will be the female. If there are three of a kind, two will be female, or the sole female will be the leader/best of the group. Whereever power changes genders in the course of the series, it almost always goes from male to female. Three rulers have been replaced by successors of different genders - two men have been replaced by women (Cairhien & Ghealdan) and the only situation where a man replaced a woman, was Beslan replacing his mother as puppet ruler of Altara. Even in that case, despite the general antipathy of the main PoV characters and the series in general to Altara's Seanchan overlords, Tylin's accomodation with them is suggested to be the course of wisdom and sensibility, while Beslan's resistance is portrayed as hot-headed foolishness. EVERYWHERE ELSE in the series, resistance to the Seanchan is good and virtuous, while accomodation is disgusting - Rand's willingness to come to a truce with them is played against his deteroriating humanity and the moral and human costs of his decision are highlighted. Perrin's willingness to work with them to defeat a much greater menace which is far more morally degenerate by any sane standard, is constantly referenced as an evil to be endured and is suggested to be a sign of his obsession with recovering Faile. Mat turns down a life of honor and comfort as the spouse of the most powerful ruler in the world, in the company of a woman he loves, because he cannot stomach living under the Seanchan. But when it comes to making a female ruler look good and her male successor look bad, all of a sudden, the appropriate positions vis a vis the Seanchan are reversed. Other instances of female power are the Domani Council of Merchants (implied to be female-dominated) and their undue influence over the king, and the gains of females among the High Seats of the Andoran Houses. At the outset of Elayne's war of succession, the genders were almost perfectly split, with three female and three male High Seats in each faction, and the lone nuetral being female (of course). Yet, even having the women outnumbering the men 10-9 was not enough for RJ. He also has to have one of the men dominated by his wife (Elenia & Jarid Sarand), and another be senile and incompetent and die to be replaced by a female who is suggested to be far more adept and competant than not only her male predecessor, but in her own right. Of Elayne's faction, which we see most closely, there is Elayne, the leader by ability and power, as well as by blood right or royal claim, Dyelin, the sole one she appears to have any respect for, and of the remainder, the only adult male in her group is a foolhardy hothead who is dismissed in one conversation as a fool, and the need to manipulate him to keep him out of trouble is discussed. The sole flawed female in this group, Catalyn Haevin, is suggested to be loyal, responsible and intelligent under her attitude. The remaining two males are a barely pubescent non-entity and a child who is supposedly the smartest and most intelligent of Elayne's four younger followers and while male, is effectively unmanned, by being a pre-adolescent. Despite the youth of the other two males, RJ is careful to show that both are at least sexually aware, and their male status has some significance beyond urinary stance. The next male Elayne adds to her followers is, despite his age, also shown to be foolish and hotheaded, and while the woman who joins their cause at the same time (Karind) had been characterized by Rand as stupid in LoC, in KoD we see her stupidity is not the dangerous kind, and she knews enough to keep her mouth shut.

Even Rand al'Thor, the supposed epitome and redeemer of masculine power in the world of WoT has an all-female entourage. The few males he had kept around previously have gone off on their own agendas and missions (in addition to having formally subservient roles to their wives), leaving him alone with Cadsuane, Alivia, Nynaeve and Min. Bashere and Logain are the closest to male henchmen he has left, but they are off doing their leadership things, and Logain bad-mouths Rand to women repeatedly and is the most pro-Aes Sedai male who is not a Warder in the entire series! One might look upon his ridiculous love-life as some sort of male power statement, having three women so desperate for his attention and affection they will even encourage him to indulge himself with the others, but even in a normal relationship, the woman has the man outnumbered: two boobs to one. Rand MIGHT have been able to be the dominant partner in a relationship with one woman. Not a prayer with three.

All this reinforces the strong theme of female dominance in the world of WoT, of which RJ seems to also being saying: "They have so many advantages normally - look at how insane it gets when we hadn over politics too!"

So with all this in mind? What culture or nation do you see as being the most male-friendly and which one do you see as the most restrictive on women in general (as opposed to customs or laws that restrict specific groups such as female channelers - in other words, I am trying to avoid answers like "The Aiel/Sea Folk/Seanchan are the most restrictive to women because all female channelers are forced to choose the same profession." )?


My personal belief with the world that is very dominated by women is to show how out of balance the world is as a result of the taint on saidin. I think the distrust of male channelers leads to the imbalance, and I'm sure it was a deliberate choice by Robert Jordan. The ancient symbol of the Aes Sedai is a form of the yin-yang, yet there is no balance of channelers. The greatest feats of the Age of Legends came from men and women working together.
My personal belief is that now that the taint is cleansed and the male and female channelers are beginning to work together the balance will begin to slowly return, maybe not during the series but soon.
I really like your point, but (and I truly am trying to be helpful) it was really hard to read. Maybe it's my OCD acting up, but I hope it will help to know in future posts, because I think this was a good point! :)

I agree with your belief as well. Or am at least hoping for that.

I'm sorry, I wasn't clear. I didn't think you were being critical at all, I just meant the block of text was hard to get through, but I didn't want to sound critical when I said it.
Just wanted to point it out because I like the idea but I assume there are people who didn't finish because it's hard to read on the computer screen.
Let's face it...people's attention spans continue to shrink on a daily basis. ;)
Thanks for the post, I've been missing out on WoT discussions for a long while.
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What do you consider to be the most pro-masculine culture/country in WoT? The most anti-female? - 19/09/2009 07:32:03 AM 1327 Views
I would say Tear. - 19/09/2009 08:08:18 AM 803 Views
I guess it's a toss up between Tear, Illian and Amador - 19/09/2009 12:28:24 PM 745 Views
What about male-only organizations? - 19/09/2009 02:00:55 PM 701 Views
Yeah, Aiel warrior societies. - 19/09/2009 03:44:36 PM 783 Views
Hm, you never do see a female Whitecloak. Do they ever talk about why? - 20/09/2009 04:11:30 PM 744 Views
Distrust of women because they hate channelers, IMHO. - 21/09/2009 03:47:43 AM 780 Views
Sort of the reverse of the attitudes I talked about below - 21/09/2009 07:21:05 PM 622 Views
Yeah, I'd go with the military thing. - 21/09/2009 05:45:47 AM 616 Views
The Asha'man are less prejudiced than the Tower. - 21/09/2009 05:48:43 AM 680 Views
I was taking you seriously - 19/09/2009 03:29:16 PM 689 Views
Amadicia - 19/09/2009 07:28:43 PM 784 Views
I'll go with Amadicia, as well. - 23/09/2009 07:36:10 PM 541 Views
No question. - 19/09/2009 08:43:47 PM 772 Views
The ogier all have masculine features. - 19/09/2009 09:06:14 PM 800 Views
Re: The ogier all have masculine features. - 19/09/2009 11:54:54 PM 649 Views
I'm not sure the Dark One can be called male... - 20/09/2009 12:27:56 AM 702 Views
Re: I'm not sure the Dark One can be called male... - 20/09/2009 06:43:09 AM 880 Views
Re: The ogier all have masculine features. - 25/09/2009 05:25:49 AM 536 Views
Re: The ogier all have masculine features. - 13/10/2009 09:01:27 AM 636 Views
Ahhhh wall of text! Some good points, though - 20/09/2009 04:04:48 PM 682 Views
Do you have anything against paragraphs? *NM* - 20/09/2009 10:03:48 PM 297 Views
White space is space with no words in it. Wasted. *NM* - 21/09/2009 07:10:41 AM 264 Views
Whitespaceisspacewithnowordsinit.Wasted.Thereifixeditforyou. - 01/10/2009 01:55:21 PM 598 Views
I agree, but I also think there is a purpose. - 21/09/2009 03:43:45 AM 621 Views
Oh, I wasn't criticizing this phenomenom, just noting it. - 21/09/2009 06:17:34 AM 715 Views
that's why they deserve 3 male taveren - 21/09/2009 05:10:52 PM 633 Views
Re: Oh, I wasn't criticizing this phenomenom, just noting it. - 21/09/2009 06:59:36 PM 744 Views
I think the Shienaran custom of protecting women is both patronizing and submissive ATST. *NM* - 21/09/2009 02:33:58 PM 727 Views
There's actual cultural reasons for that. - 23/09/2009 04:25:52 AM 569 Views
Far Madding, Elayne's bodyguards, and Tar Valon *NM* - 21/09/2009 07:40:09 PM 295 Views
Amadicia, and possibly the Borderlands - 13/10/2009 08:19:11 AM 714 Views

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