Re: I'm referring to what he tells Min...
DrJacJacMcScrumptious Send a noteboard - 11/06/2011 07:13:22 PM
Yeah but having a plan to kill the DO probably has some aspect that can be applied to a plan to trap him. This is all supposition though.
He didn't have a plan. He wanted to kill the DO, but that's different from having a plan for it.
I cannot remember the quote from TGS. I assume you are correct. That's kind of a stupid thing for Rand to say though- of course he wants to destroy the DO.
It shows he's missing important information for using Callandor. It also doesn't show that he literally intends to have this meeting then break the seals straight away. That is inferred from what e told Egwene which is deliberate misleading IMO. If not then I agree that his plan is very risky but just waiting and hoping things sort themselves out is not a better alternative.
Well, he could be misleading about immediately breaking the Seals, but I doubt it. He says he plans to meet people at Merillor and then go fight the DO. So it doesn't seem that he sees much of a waiting period in between. As for waiting for things to sort themselves out... that is what Rand wants to do, but with the Seals broken, which is just stupid.
As he never states that it's not even really misleading. The seals are breaking anyway. His forces are unlikely to become more unified or stronger than they are now. Also SuperRand is the only person on the lightside who knows what the consequences of the DO being "free" are. He is in a better place to make this kind of call than you and definitely than Egwene. and I state, there's s reason we don't have Rand PoVs this book- it would give too much of the game away. All you can infer is from what he has told others. And he has mislead his followers before. A lot in fact, including Min. The fact that before he is meant to be about to break the seals and he's still got people looking for answers to help with his plan implies he probably isn't literally about to break them now, or that he doesn't think it'll make any difference if he does. And he is pretty much the only source of AoL information on the bore now, except the bad guys.
I think it would be pretty in character, but then Egwene annoys me. Not that she hasn't done good things but she has made some very illogical decisions without Rand's excuse of madness. Plus any plan anyone comes up with cannot be guaranteed to succeed anyway- nobody knows what the DO is, he's always won in this cycle before, it's too much of a risk to try the same thing as last time but with Saidar and Saidin in case both get tainted. The only people with more knowledge of the DO that SuperRand are the FS and so only if Lanfear is genuinely going to switch over can trustworthy (if that) new useful information realistically come. It's all very well saying he needs to have everything perfectly planned out, but that can't happen. So should he wait forever for a plan that will never e finished or try and have some advantage of any kind? He's going to be punished next book for waiting so long as it is. Either he doesn't know enough about the bore and needs to find out more- which would require Lanfear or going to Shayol Gul and I suggest he should only do that once ever considering what it is!- or LTT already let's him know what he needs to know. There aren't many other places he can get useful information from! This idea of a perfect plan doesnt exist- every AS in the age of legends together couldn't come up with it.
Let's keep our likes and dislikes of characters out of it, okay? Because however irritating you find her, I think you can agree that Egwene always uses all the advantages she has. Her not doing so is very out of character.
I was keeping my irritation out of it. True she does usually use her advantages, but she can't work out what her Dream means. And whether she does or not, she'll reveal it, I hope, at Merrilor with the leaders of nations watching and when Rand is actually there. That way it will be most helpful as a source of information to him and as an advantage to her. She's got everyone at the meeting, like Rand wanted, without needed it mostly because it'd look less convincing in a letter than pointing out that the seals are there for a reason. And hopefully when she does reveal it, Rand or Min will use it. But I don't think her behaviour is out of Character. Rand predicted the actions he needed and the ones she hasn't done yet that he can't predict make more sense if done in front of Rand as he's the one she needs to convince.
And yes, Rand knows more about the Bore than most others. But there may well be some Brown somewhere with some crucial piece of knowledge. But that is immaterial in the fact of what Egwene's Dream seems to mean. That is a piece of information no one seems to have except Egwene. It is new knowledge about the Bore that is exclusively Egwene's. Why shouldn't that be considered?
Well so far it's more of a general idea of riskiness (I'm pretty sure rand knows it is risky) than any specific information but I'm sure she will share it with him. We don't know what her dream means yet though we and she can guess! That's another point of the meeting, I hope, to consider people like Egwene's input into the plan against the shadow.
How do you know? You don't know something is a clue until the event it is a clue for is revealed. I certainly didn't expect the Cleansing from the clues we were given, though I knew Saidin would have to be purified at some point. I didn't expect Rand to balefire Graendel's palace, or (until very late) trick and trap Asmodean. If anything this is Rand's MO when he's actually planning. He doesn't share his plans with his loved ones until the last minute, partially because they are dangerous and he knows they won't like the high risk to him.
I know because I saw both the Cleansing and the trap for Asmodean from a mile off. The plan at Natrin's Barrow was unpredictable, but that wasn't something that had many chapters before where clues could be placed. Sealing the Bore is more like the plan to Cleanse Saidin, and there have been hints about it. For example, everyone would have predicted Rand's idea to break the Seals. Its the when of it that is an issue. I don't really see Egwene objecting if Rand says he's going to break the Seals right before he commences re-sealing.
That's kind of the point, he wants the scare factor of the threat of breakingthe seals now to get Egwene's first priority as gathering the nations of the world, and it is the quickest way of forcing those both for and against him to come together. As for the earlier events, I explained myself poorly. We could all see that he would cleanse Saidin, probably with the CK, but did you see him manipulating Cadsuane et al into following him so he had defended? He was going to have to kill Graendal, but did you guess how? He was going to get Asmodean as a tutor but how he set the trap to drive him to Rhuidean?
We know he has to seal the DO in. The point we don't know is how, just like with these earlier events. And though he isn't doing it, Rand can rely a certain degree on making things up as he goes along, as he is in control of the nature of reality and chance.
I still think Rand will use Callandor in a circle to draw in the entire DO as the TP then try and seal it inside himself and throw himself through the bore, maybe as a corpse, using the Pattern that he can now control to close it up behind him. Then he might bodyswap with Moridin. There are clues that could indicate this but we won't know they are clues until we find put what actually happens. The whole purpose of a clue is to be obvious when the answer is revealed but not before then.
Ummm... no. The point of a clue is to indicate what will happen before. And your theory about Callandor may be right, but it certainly isn't part of Rand's plan, since he doesn't know how to fit Callandor into his plans.
This is true, I must confess.
Merillor isn't going to go as planned because Rand has ignored the Black Tower too long and Trollocs are attacking Caemlyn, but the point behind it to force people together so that they can actually all communicate for the first time in 13 books still stands and that is artifice on Rand's part and it is natural to me in terms of the expected actions of the characters onvolved
And the answer came to her instantly: pride. Oh, you hear them say it's a sin; you hear them say it goes before a fall. the shepherd prides himself on keeping the wolf out from the flock. We pride ourselves on making a good history of our lives, a good story to be told.
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04/06/2011 07:21:21 PM
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Re: Rand and Egwene: An artificial conflict?
05/06/2011 01:55:19 AM
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Rand will break the seals with the purpose of...
06/06/2011 09:06:43 AM
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that's more than a little foolish if he doesn't already have a plan to reseal the bore
06/06/2011 01:08:38 PM
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Re: Rand and Egwene: An artificial conflict?
10/06/2011 11:16:20 AM
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Nope...
10/06/2011 05:13:55 PM
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Re: Nope...
11/06/2011 02:15:06 AM
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I'm referring to what he tells Min...
11/06/2011 05:17:53 AM
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Re: I'm referring to what he tells Min...
11/06/2011 11:18:12 AM
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Also the fact that he is playing Efwene to get leaders all in one place is explicitly stated
11/06/2011 11:26:18 AM
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Re: I'm referring to what he tells Min...
11/06/2011 05:34:31 PM
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Re: I'm referring to what he tells Min...
11/06/2011 07:13:22 PM
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I really like this idea
11/06/2011 06:53:34 PM
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