"McClellanesque", eh? I'll have to remember that one.
Joel Send a noteboard - 16/05/2011 12:12:23 AM
Siuan didn't have to be secretive and manipulative as she was just to conceal her knowledge of what Moiraine was up to with Rand, but she was busy "preparing" (read: Manipulating) world leaders into accepting him while being just as careful to make sure no one in the Tower knew what she was up to despite making it obvious to EVERYONE she was up to something. Even if she didn't reveal anything to anyone she could've remained more involved and engaged with Tower leaders than she had to have been for one dissident White and a long absent Red to engineer a coup requiring most of the Hall. They were ripe for her overthrow because they'd been reduced to isolated spectators (and often not even that) and lackeys in a game whose goals and rules only Siuan knew.
Also, don't forget, Siuan herself was the one to figure out that the Black Ajah KNEW Rand had been born and what they were trying to do about it. If the Black Ajah already knows, than the only people Siuan is keeping in the dark about the Dragon's Rebirth are the good guys! She is not protecting Rand at all, since the Shadow is fully aware of him. She is only keeping him a secret from those who might want to help him! Siuan, as far as she knew, was sharing a secret with the Black Ajah! Why do you do that? Plainly the Shadow is okay with keeping Rand a secret from the world, and as Moiraine says, is there a better reason to oppose something?
Well, an argument could be made she didn't want to tip her hand once she knew Moiraine had found, or was close to finding, Rand; the one big advantage they had between Winternight and the fall of the Stone was that they knew who the Dragon was (or were at least fairly certain they did) while the BA simply knew he was out there somewhere. It's rather surprising the Forsaken didn't tell them (though they were flashing their faces as early as TGHs prologue), or maybe it's not since the BA is such an erratic and overly ambitious loose cannon throughout the series. Ultimately, however, Siuan should've realized that the BA knowing the Dragon had been Reborn almost as soon as she and Moiraine did meant they'd come to precisely the conclusion most of them did even before the Stone: That the otherwise unremarkable backwoods shepherd boy who just happens to be in his late teens, looks like he stepped out of the Waste, is surrounded by bizarre events and inexplicably holds the fascination of both the Amyrlin and her pillow friend is PROBABLY the Dragon Reborn. For all her pride at having kept back Rands identity under torture, the fact is most of the people inclined to press her for that bit of data knew before she did. She concealed little, if anything, and rather than averting suspicion, she increased it.
As for setting Egwene up as Latrae, that may well be, but how much she did to "save the world" remains to be seen. HER plan was to use create the Choedan Kal to reimprison the DO; there's no evidence that was even possible, and had the Shadow known the access keys were within territory they captured it could've been disastrous. All we really know was that the full implementation of LTTs plan required women and was thus significantly impaired without them (though is his comments in ToM indicate he hadn't anticipated and consequently planned for the DOs response anyway, so in that sense perhaps Latrae did save the world).
But in a manner that does not redound to her credit. She was wrong about the consequences she predicted for LTT's plan, after all. "No one anticipated the Dark One's counter-stroke" is the official word. And even knowing about the taint in advance, a strong case could still be made for going forward with the plan anyway. The Breaking was a preferable fate to the conquest and triumph of the Shadow. Latra Posae screwed up by allowing the Breaking to happen on her watch. Given what we know of her behavior prior to the Strike on Shayol Ghul, I would not be surprised at all to learn that a large part of what allowed the Breaking to happen was the same hesitant, dilatory & overly cautious, George McClellan-esque approach to a crisis. I am sure she dithered over the problem of what to do about the male channelers just long enough for them to escalate into a nigh-insurmountable problem.
It's amusing that while there seems to be a consensus that Egwene has inherited Latras role, if not her soul, it's only deepened rather than resolved the debate about both womens worth. From what LTT says through Rand it's not clear the womens involvement would have prevented the Taint, and might have made it worse by infecting every subsquent channeler with it (on the other hand, with the greater ability and strength available in a 72 person link perhaps the Companions could've accomplished their task and been done before the DO had the CHANCE to respond). What we do know is that a "re-Taint" would hardly catch Rand by surprise now, and he's working hard on an alternative even if he hasn't found it yet. Nonetheless, Egwene stands ready and eager to oppose him on anything not her idea despite his possession of strength, ability, knowledge and experience that dwarfs hers. Not that Egwene has a viable alternative (Latra at least had that much), she's just rejecting unheard the only one on the table. Never mind that it's coming from the man prophecied for three millennia as the Lights champion and only hope at the Last Battle who, oh, yeah, just happens to be the reincarnation of the greatest channeler who ever lived, who forged the Seals in the first place. I seem to recall Jordan specifically saying something that rules out Egwene as Latra Reborn (I want to say Latra hasn't BEEN Reborn), which argues ta'veren aren't the only ones the Pattern spins out to play a role. After all, had Egwene not been able or willing to oppose anything and everything Rand said, Elaida would've been equally happy to do so (it should give Egwene pause that despite wanting a break from Elaidas regime her plan for "dealing with" the Dragon is only nominally different). Makes you wonder who would have gone to the Waste if Tigraine hadn't felt like it.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Egwene vs. Gawyn (ToM spoilers of course)
28/04/2011 05:01:46 AM
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There's fifty feet of crap between rock bottom and your post... *NM*
28/04/2011 07:40:04 AM
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Almost three days since the last post...at least I'm trying.
28/04/2011 12:17:59 PM
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What is to discuss here? You hate Egwene and will spin anything to put her in a negative light
28/04/2011 12:59:58 PM
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But he's so good at it. all the pieces are in there and close to the right place... like a picasso.
03/05/2011 12:51:54 AM
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I'd say there's no need to take it so seriously when there's so few posts lately. You should see
28/04/2011 05:59:19 PM
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while i agree with you on most of this
28/04/2011 04:53:06 PM
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hmpf, i post a good point and nothing
28/04/2011 11:09:53 PM
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you could say the same about a lot of the relationships in this series
28/04/2011 04:59:19 PM
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I agree there are plenty of underdeveloped and somewhat one-sided relationships in the series
28/04/2011 08:15:52 PM
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Re: I agree there are plenty of underdeveloped and somewhat one-sided relationships in the series
29/04/2011 06:55:14 PM
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In regards to the letters...
28/04/2011 05:28:13 PM
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But Gawyn was not Egwene's subject
28/04/2011 06:09:31 PM
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Which was why I thought it was appropriate, since he meant to act as Egwene's Warder.
28/04/2011 06:19:53 PM
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The only issue is that Warders are not minions - they are honored junior partners.
28/04/2011 07:39:18 PM
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No, the junior partners are Accepted. Warders are essentially personal bodyguards and/or assistants.
28/04/2011 08:00:17 PM
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Accepted are not anything, let alone junior partners. Don't think N&E's experience was typical
28/04/2011 09:32:22 PM
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Here's the thing though...
28/04/2011 11:20:32 PM
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No, but it's cute and quirky when Faile does it.
29/04/2011 03:06:50 PM
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But...
29/04/2011 10:52:03 PM
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That's not really clear
29/04/2011 11:41:20 PM
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Actually, it is...
30/04/2011 06:37:42 PM
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Re: Actually, it is...
30/04/2011 11:17:21 PM
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Didn't Siuan, Gareth and Gawyn tell her about the Bloodknife they encountered?
02/05/2011 02:33:08 PM
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Re: Accepted are not anything, let alone junior partners. Don't think N&E's experience was typical
28/04/2011 11:36:24 PM
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My two cents: yes, a little, maybe, and possibly not.
28/04/2011 06:05:09 PM
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Regarding your reference to another Emond's Fielder: What are you talking about?
28/04/2011 09:06:13 PM
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both together, couldn't separate them in my mind - perrin's evasiveness or nyn's trickiness *NM*
28/04/2011 10:16:57 PM
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It isn't the worst romance in WoT
28/04/2011 08:10:23 PM
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Galad is a great option for a political marriage
28/04/2011 09:04:46 PM
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Yes, but...
28/04/2011 09:40:39 PM
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but galad knew nothing of berelain's closeness to rand, so that couldn't have affected anything
28/04/2011 10:12:23 PM
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Yes. An often overlooked point is that ELAYNE, not Egwene, gains the most power in ToM
28/04/2011 09:42:43 PM
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Except they're both really hot.
28/04/2011 10:01:46 PM
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I can only quibble; Egwene became so insufferable in ToM I'm convinced her fate will be unpleasant.
04/05/2011 12:41:53 AM
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Siuan...
04/05/2011 05:42:59 AM
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Re: Siuan screwed up big time.
07/05/2011 03:35:46 AM
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Re: Siuan screwed up big time.
12/05/2011 02:13:08 PM
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"McClellanesque", eh? I'll have to remember that one.
16/05/2011 12:12:23 AM
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Good points all round (do you switch brains when getting into real world politics? ) & re: the Talk
12/05/2011 02:04:06 PM
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Thanks, (and no, you just become less and less astute as we move farther from fiction. )
15/05/2011 11:46:41 PM
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