Thanks, (and no, you just become less and less astute as we move farther from fiction. )
Joel Send a noteboard - 15/05/2011 11:46:41 PM
I'm not sure she was "still technically Rands girlfriend" at that point; I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe they'd already had The Talk and she certainly didn't think of herself that way regardless.
She might not have thought of herself that way, but the rest of the world, including Rand, was unaware of that. Rand might have decided that he didn't want to, and could not, marry Egwene, but he was still staying faithful to her to both not hurt her, and to shield himself against any other relationships. As far as the rest of the world was concerned (including the pining future mother of his children) they were still an item. They only had the Talk once Egwene decided to pass along his pink slip, and in her own PoV after the conversation, we see her primary motivation was not so much doing what was necessary to be officially free or to set him loose, but rather emotionally manipulating him to leave him vulnerable to Elayne's overtures. As it turns out, no thanks at all to her, the first friend of Egwene's to allow her to realize her attraction to Rand was Elayne and not some random headcase or Darkfriend, so her high-handed and arrogant presumption to dictate Rand's next love interest works out well in her choice of recipients. Of course, an even better match for Rand would have been Aviendha and Egwene's interference in his love life hopelessly complicated that relationship. And any suggestion that Egwene is being a good, caring & sensitive friend to Elayne by her prioritizing her new friend's wishes over the intentions of her childhood neighbor and one-time love interest, is severely undermined by the fact that Elayne has all but been jumping up and down since the first day they met yelling "I'll take him if you don't want him!" in Egwene's face, but Egwene only realizes it after a year and a half's acquaintance. Some friend. Only Egwene would find a way to give the shaft to both ends of the same couple in her matchmaking. A little more sensitivity on her part and she could have made Elayne happy by giving her the green light a lot sooner than three days before they were leaving Tear and she wouldn't see him for another half a year. Keeping her mouth shut and her nose out of other people's love lives would have permitted Rand to indulge in a relationship with a more suitable (or at least available) partner. Either way would have simplified his life immensely by either giving Elayne time to build a committed relationship with him before having to split and let others get access, or by not creating the fictitious Elayne claim that messed up Aviendha so much. Further, if Rand gets into a serious relationship with either woman and no Egwene games interfering with her commitment to him, chances are he never gets involved seriously with Min. It's one thing to sleep with a girl when the last thing you heard from Elayne is a piece of hate mail, and Aviendha gives every sign of wanting nothing further to do with you. It is another thing entirely cheat on woman with Min.I overlooked the "after the termination of that relationship" part, so I thought you were saying she was dreaming about Gawyn before she dumped Rand (or she dumped him, depending on whom you ask; even when these people talk they have trouble communicating ). BTW, it's revealing in retrospect that while Rand and Egwene both decided to end things, they did so for VERY different reasons. Rand is horrified at saddling Egwene with a husband doomed to madness and death, while Egwene seems to have gotten bored with and "outgrown" him, having set her sights on bigger and better things. Wonder how long she'd have waited to inform him of that without Elayne incessantly mooning over him. As for Rand without Min: The mind boggles at how much more prepared for the Last Battle that would leave him. At least with both hands he'd have a fighting chance against Shaidar Haran despite not being able to channel; right now he'd be hamburger.
It's not like our Egwene would wait for Rands permission once she convinced herself she was a free agent; she'd rationalize a morally defensible way to do as she pleased.
True enough. In Elayne's shoes, do you think she'd have spent as many weeks in Tear as they apparently did without making moves or trying to worm her way in, regardless of what she perceived to be his official relationship status? She'd have been saying the exact same things in her head about the guy's girlfriend that Min said to her at the end of tGH. And see her behavior with Aram among the tinkers as exhibit B.
I generally agree, but have another tiny quibble: Egwene wasn't going to cheat on Rand with Aram. She was just being a tease. Based on how Aram turned out, she should be glad the Tinkers have the Way of the Leaf.
Speaking of rationalization, it may be a little trite, but I think perhaps in this case the Dream's the thing; as Egwene ventures into a more raw and primal realm where she's fairly defenseless at first, where progress is made by opening oneself in much the way channeling had conditioned her to do, and where the subconscious reigns supreme, it's plausible that her awareness of Gawyn grew greatly without her even realizing it, and feelings she didn't even perceive blossomed or deepened before she knew it. It's still a bit abrupt, and surprising that she wasn't more skeptical of what she experienced (though she does express some surprise at first that Gawyn is inexplicably in her dreams), but not utterly bizarre. Stranger things have happened, and it's not so unusual for young women to form a crush that way; hers just happened to later become more than just a crush.
This is actually a good explanation for where her feelings - or the feelings that she used to rationalize the advantageous relationship - come from.Probably the best we'll get; Jordan was unlikely to elaborate further even had he remained alive. More meta than I'd like, but plausible.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Egwene vs. Gawyn (ToM spoilers of course)
28/04/2011 05:01:46 AM
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There's fifty feet of crap between rock bottom and your post... *NM*
28/04/2011 07:40:04 AM
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Almost three days since the last post...at least I'm trying.
28/04/2011 12:17:59 PM
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What is to discuss here? You hate Egwene and will spin anything to put her in a negative light
28/04/2011 12:59:58 PM
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But he's so good at it. all the pieces are in there and close to the right place... like a picasso.
03/05/2011 12:51:54 AM
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I'd say there's no need to take it so seriously when there's so few posts lately. You should see
28/04/2011 05:59:19 PM
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while i agree with you on most of this
28/04/2011 04:53:06 PM
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hmpf, i post a good point and nothing
28/04/2011 11:09:53 PM
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you could say the same about a lot of the relationships in this series
28/04/2011 04:59:19 PM
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I agree there are plenty of underdeveloped and somewhat one-sided relationships in the series
28/04/2011 08:15:52 PM
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Re: I agree there are plenty of underdeveloped and somewhat one-sided relationships in the series
29/04/2011 06:55:14 PM
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In regards to the letters...
28/04/2011 05:28:13 PM
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But Gawyn was not Egwene's subject
28/04/2011 06:09:31 PM
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Which was why I thought it was appropriate, since he meant to act as Egwene's Warder.
28/04/2011 06:19:53 PM
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The only issue is that Warders are not minions - they are honored junior partners.
28/04/2011 07:39:18 PM
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No, the junior partners are Accepted. Warders are essentially personal bodyguards and/or assistants.
28/04/2011 08:00:17 PM
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Accepted are not anything, let alone junior partners. Don't think N&E's experience was typical
28/04/2011 09:32:22 PM
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Here's the thing though...
28/04/2011 11:20:32 PM
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No, but it's cute and quirky when Faile does it.
29/04/2011 03:06:50 PM
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But...
29/04/2011 10:52:03 PM
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That's not really clear
29/04/2011 11:41:20 PM
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Actually, it is...
30/04/2011 06:37:42 PM
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Re: Actually, it is...
30/04/2011 11:17:21 PM
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Didn't Siuan, Gareth and Gawyn tell her about the Bloodknife they encountered?
02/05/2011 02:33:08 PM
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Re: Accepted are not anything, let alone junior partners. Don't think N&E's experience was typical
28/04/2011 11:36:24 PM
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My two cents: yes, a little, maybe, and possibly not.
28/04/2011 06:05:09 PM
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Regarding your reference to another Emond's Fielder: What are you talking about?
28/04/2011 09:06:13 PM
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both together, couldn't separate them in my mind - perrin's evasiveness or nyn's trickiness *NM*
28/04/2011 10:16:57 PM
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It isn't the worst romance in WoT
28/04/2011 08:10:23 PM
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Galad is a great option for a political marriage
28/04/2011 09:04:46 PM
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Yes, but...
28/04/2011 09:40:39 PM
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but galad knew nothing of berelain's closeness to rand, so that couldn't have affected anything
28/04/2011 10:12:23 PM
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Yes. An often overlooked point is that ELAYNE, not Egwene, gains the most power in ToM
28/04/2011 09:42:43 PM
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Except they're both really hot.
28/04/2011 10:01:46 PM
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I can only quibble; Egwene became so insufferable in ToM I'm convinced her fate will be unpleasant.
04/05/2011 12:41:53 AM
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Siuan...
04/05/2011 05:42:59 AM
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Re: Siuan screwed up big time.
07/05/2011 03:35:46 AM
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Good points all round (do you switch brains when getting into real world politics? ) & re: the Talk
12/05/2011 02:04:06 PM
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Thanks, (and no, you just become less and less astute as we move farther from fiction. )
15/05/2011 11:46:41 PM
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