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Thanks, (and no, you just become less and less astute as we move farther from fiction. ) Joel Send a noteboard - 15/05/2011 11:46:41 PM
I'm not sure she was "still technically Rands girlfriend" at that point; I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe they'd already had The Talk and she certainly didn't think of herself that way regardless.
She might not have thought of herself that way, but the rest of the world, including Rand, was unaware of that. Rand might have decided that he didn't want to, and could not, marry Egwene, but he was still staying faithful to her to both not hurt her, and to shield himself against any other relationships. As far as the rest of the world was concerned (including the pining future mother of his children) they were still an item. They only had the Talk once Egwene decided to pass along his pink slip, and in her own PoV after the conversation, we see her primary motivation was not so much doing what was necessary to be officially free or to set him loose, but rather emotionally manipulating him to leave him vulnerable to Elayne's overtures. As it turns out, no thanks at all to her, the first friend of Egwene's to allow her to realize her attraction to Rand was Elayne and not some random headcase or Darkfriend, so her high-handed and arrogant presumption to dictate Rand's next love interest works out well in her choice of recipients. Of course, an even better match for Rand would have been Aviendha and Egwene's interference in his love life hopelessly complicated that relationship. And any suggestion that Egwene is being a good, caring & sensitive friend to Elayne by her prioritizing her new friend's wishes over the intentions of her childhood neighbor and one-time love interest, is severely undermined by the fact that Elayne has all but been jumping up and down since the first day they met yelling "I'll take him if you don't want him!" in Egwene's face, but Egwene only realizes it after a year and a half's acquaintance. Some friend. Only Egwene would find a way to give the shaft to both ends of the same couple in her matchmaking. A little more sensitivity on her part and she could have made Elayne happy by giving her the green light a lot sooner than three days before they were leaving Tear and she wouldn't see him for another half a year. Keeping her mouth shut and her nose out of other people's love lives would have permitted Rand to indulge in a relationship with a more suitable (or at least available) partner. Either way would have simplified his life immensely by either giving Elayne time to build a committed relationship with him before having to split and let others get access, or by not creating the fictitious Elayne claim that messed up Aviendha so much. Further, if Rand gets into a serious relationship with either woman and no Egwene games interfering with her commitment to him, chances are he never gets involved seriously with Min. It's one thing to sleep with a girl when the last thing you heard from Elayne is a piece of hate mail, and Aviendha gives every sign of wanting nothing further to do with you. It is another thing entirely cheat on woman with Min.

I overlooked the "after the termination of that relationship" part, so I thought you were saying she was dreaming about Gawyn before she dumped Rand (or she dumped him, depending on whom you ask; even when these people talk they have trouble communicating :rolleyes: ). BTW, it's revealing in retrospect that while Rand and Egwene both decided to end things, they did so for VERY different reasons. Rand is horrified at saddling Egwene with a husband doomed to madness and death, while Egwene seems to have gotten bored with and "outgrown" him, having set her sights on bigger and better things. Wonder how long she'd have waited to inform him of that without Elayne incessantly mooning over him. As for Rand without Min: The mind boggles at how much more prepared for the Last Battle that would leave him. At least with both hands he'd have a fighting chance against Shaidar Haran despite not being able to channel; right now he'd be hamburger.
It's not like our Egwene would wait for Rands permission once she convinced herself she was a free agent; she'd rationalize a morally defensible way to do as she pleased.

True enough. In Elayne's shoes, do you think she'd have spent as many weeks in Tear as they apparently did without making moves or trying to worm her way in, regardless of what she perceived to be his official relationship status? She'd have been saying the exact same things in her head about the guy's girlfriend that Min said to her at the end of tGH. And see her behavior with Aram among the tinkers as exhibit B.

I generally agree, but have another tiny quibble: Egwene wasn't going to cheat on Rand with Aram. She was just being a tease. :) Based on how Aram turned out, she should be glad the Tinkers have the Way of the Leaf. :dead:
Speaking of rationalization, it may be a little trite, but I think perhaps in this case the Dream's the thing; as Egwene ventures into a more raw and primal realm where she's fairly defenseless at first, where progress is made by opening oneself in much the way channeling had conditioned her to do, and where the subconscious reigns supreme, it's plausible that her awareness of Gawyn grew greatly without her even realizing it, and feelings she didn't even perceive blossomed or deepened before she knew it. It's still a bit abrupt, and surprising that she wasn't more skeptical of what she experienced (though she does express some surprise at first that Gawyn is inexplicably in her dreams), but not utterly bizarre. Stranger things have happened, and it's not so unusual for young women to form a crush that way; hers just happened to later become more than just a crush.
This is actually a good explanation for where her feelings - or the feelings that she used to rationalize the advantageous relationship - come from.

Probably the best we'll get; Jordan was unlikely to elaborate further even had he remained alive. More meta than I'd like, but plausible.
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Egwene vs. Gawyn (ToM spoilers of course) - 28/04/2011 05:01:46 AM 3979 Views
There's fifty feet of crap between rock bottom and your post... *NM* - 28/04/2011 07:40:04 AM 474 Views
Almost three days since the last post...at least I'm trying. - 28/04/2011 12:17:59 PM 943 Views
Sorry about that... - 28/04/2011 10:58:50 PM 1004 Views
Ah, its always good to see a good Egwene rant. Bravo! NM *NM* - 28/04/2011 01:58:46 PM 712 Views
Great work, Cannoli - 28/04/2011 02:09:28 PM 956 Views
Regarding the mother's permission.... - 28/04/2011 07:26:29 PM 1022 Views
while i agree with you on most of this - 28/04/2011 04:53:06 PM 1086 Views
hmpf, i post a good point and nothing - 28/04/2011 11:09:53 PM 864 Views
Everybody agrees with you, that's why there were no replies *NM* - 28/04/2011 11:29:13 PM 462 Views
Here's a scary thought - 28/04/2011 11:54:50 PM 1168 Views
OMGWTFBBQ!? - 28/04/2011 11:58:37 PM 926 Views
In regards to the letters... - 28/04/2011 05:28:13 PM 1132 Views
But Gawyn was not Egwene's subject - 28/04/2011 06:09:31 PM 944 Views
Which was why I thought it was appropriate, since he meant to act as Egwene's Warder. - 28/04/2011 06:19:53 PM 904 Views
The only issue is that Warders are not minions - they are honored junior partners. - 28/04/2011 07:39:18 PM 1062 Views
No, the junior partners are Accepted. Warders are essentially personal bodyguards and/or assistants. - 28/04/2011 08:00:17 PM 859 Views
Marriage - 28/04/2011 08:27:53 PM 887 Views
Accepted are not anything, let alone junior partners. Don't think N&E's experience was typical - 28/04/2011 09:32:22 PM 1091 Views
Here's the thing though... - 28/04/2011 11:20:32 PM 913 Views
No, but it's cute and quirky when Faile does it. - 29/04/2011 03:06:50 PM 1079 Views
But... - 29/04/2011 10:52:03 PM 876 Views
That's not really clear - 29/04/2011 11:41:20 PM 1006 Views
Actually, it is... - 30/04/2011 06:37:42 PM 1021 Views
Re: Actually, it is... - 30/04/2011 11:17:21 PM 899 Views
Didn't Siuan, Gareth and Gawyn tell her about the Bloodknife they encountered? - 02/05/2011 02:33:08 PM 906 Views
It isn't the worst romance in WoT - 28/04/2011 08:10:23 PM 1212 Views
Re: It isn't the worst romance in WoT - 28/04/2011 08:25:31 PM 1132 Views
thumbs up to you both *NM* - 28/04/2011 08:45:51 PM 444 Views
Re: It isn't the worst romance in WoT - 28/04/2011 08:46:37 PM 1029 Views
Galad is a great option for a political marriage - 28/04/2011 09:04:46 PM 895 Views
Yes, but... - 28/04/2011 09:40:39 PM 941 Views
but galad knew nothing of berelain's closeness to rand, so that couldn't have affected anything - 28/04/2011 10:12:23 PM 975 Views
Exactly - 28/04/2011 10:27:04 PM 823 Views
Yes. An often overlooked point is that ELAYNE, not Egwene, gains the most power in ToM - 28/04/2011 09:42:43 PM 1278 Views
Except... - 28/04/2011 11:16:25 PM 935 Views
Well... - 29/04/2011 12:14:42 AM 887 Views
Re: Well... - 29/04/2011 08:39:37 AM 877 Views
Except they're both really hot. - 28/04/2011 10:01:46 PM 1071 Views
They were naive - 28/04/2011 11:10:34 PM 900 Views
Re: They were naive - 29/04/2011 03:18:42 PM 1143 Views
I can only quibble; Egwene became so insufferable in ToM I'm convinced her fate will be unpleasant. - 04/05/2011 12:41:53 AM 1044 Views
Siuan... - 04/05/2011 05:42:59 AM 1044 Views
Re: Siuan screwed up big time. - 07/05/2011 03:35:46 AM 913 Views
Re: Siuan screwed up big time. - 12/05/2011 02:13:08 PM 902 Views
"McClellanesque", eh? I'll have to remember that one. - 16/05/2011 12:12:23 AM 1178 Views
Good points all round (do you switch brains when getting into real world politics? ) & re: the Talk - 12/05/2011 02:04:06 PM 861 Views
I remember being blindsided by "The Talk" in tSR - 12/05/2011 05:04:08 PM 874 Views
Thanks, (and no, you just become less and less astute as we move farther from fiction. ) - 15/05/2011 11:46:41 PM 1214 Views

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