Siuans two decades of manipulative scheming made her Amyrlin and thereby gave Moiraine the resources and latitude to find, protect and prepare Rand for his destiny, but also created the enduring legacy of suspicion and betrayal that deposed and stilled her. That might be excused as a necessary evil to ensure the Dragon reaches the Last Battle (she seems to justified it thus to herself), except that had she not been so consistently devious and tight lipped about all her activities the Sitters would not have been so receptive to whispers against her, and had she involved anyone but Moiraine (even Leanne, who was pointedly excluded) she might have had some whisper herself about what was brewing. Instead, Elaida was able to buttonhole Alviarin without her notice and the two of them to muster most of the Hall against the Amyrlin under her very nose. Against that backdrop Egwenes treatment of Gawyn is par for the course; when SOP is "trust no one; they're all too stupid/wicked to merit trust" it's no surprise her lover is lumped into the category along with her childhood friends, allies and mentor. Egwene plays her own game, and plays it very well, but everyone we've seen play that game eventually and dramatically LOST.
Actually, Siuan did want to involve other people. Moiriane was the one who put her foot down and said it would have to be just the two of them. Thank the Creator for that, because the first person Siuan wanted to turn to was Sheriam!
They really had no way back then to know who was Black Ajah, and they were very wise to shut up.
And while Siuan's silence did lead to her downfall, its a small price to pay compared to the alternatives. Even if all the women they involved in their plan turned out to be trustworthy, it would have meant a lot more Aes Sedai around Rand.
As for Merrilor breaking Egwene... I'd just re-read the whole Latra Pose vs. Lews Therin situation. Neither broke the other, and in the end, both played their part to save the world. RJ was very clearly setting up Egwene to be the Third Age's Latra Pose. The reason she came across so unevenly in ToM is because these were all scenes Jordan had less to do with than the Egwene scenes in tGS. Brandon just botched the characterization completely.
Siuan didn't have to be secretive and manipulative as she was just to conceal her knowledge of what Moiraine was up to with Rand, but she was busy "preparing" (read: Manipulating) world leaders into accepting him while being just as careful to make sure no one in the Tower knew what she was up to despite making it obvious to EVERYONE she was up to something. Even if she didn't reveal anything to anyone she could've remained more involved and engaged with Tower leaders than she had to have been for one dissident White and a long absent Red to engineer a coup requiring most of the Hall. They were ripe for her overthrow because they'd been reduced to isolated spectators (and often not even that) and lackeys in a game whose goals and rules only Siuan knew.
As for setting Egwene up as Latrae, that may well be, but how much she did to "save the world" remains to be seen. HER plan was to use create the Choedan Kal to reimprison the DO; there's no evidence that was even possible, and had the Shadow known the access keys were within territory they captured it could've been disastrous. All we really know was that the full implementation of LTTs plan required women and was thus significantly impaired without them (though is his comments in ToM indicate he hadn't anticipated and consequently planned for the DOs response anyway, so in that sense perhaps Latrae did save the world). However, returning to what I consider an overarching theme of the series, within the context of LTT vs. Latrae it seems clear that HE was the one acting preemptively and unilaterally and Latrae was a check on that. The current timeline may represent a role reversal in that Rand/LTT is generally a lot more inclusive and open to dissent than Egwene (with the notable exception of the Seals, but most relevant parties agree with him there anyway, and he's still stated his intent to make an ARGUMENT, which Egwene has already committed to rejecting in much the way that Latrae rejected LTTs strike at Shayol Ghul).
In ToM Brandon merely continued and developed Egwenes plotline in the way it was already heading. I'd have to think him a very clumsy and tactless writer to believe he portrayed Egwene as unbearably as she appears in the last book, and I don't. If I didn't consider her narrative value a lot higher in the scenario I described I probably wouldn't support it.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Egwene vs. Gawyn (ToM spoilers of course)
28/04/2011 05:01:46 AM
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There's fifty feet of crap between rock bottom and your post... *NM*
28/04/2011 07:40:04 AM
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Almost three days since the last post...at least I'm trying.
28/04/2011 12:17:59 PM
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What is to discuss here? You hate Egwene and will spin anything to put her in a negative light
28/04/2011 12:59:58 PM
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But he's so good at it. all the pieces are in there and close to the right place... like a picasso.
03/05/2011 12:51:54 AM
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I'd say there's no need to take it so seriously when there's so few posts lately. You should see
28/04/2011 05:59:19 PM
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while i agree with you on most of this
28/04/2011 04:53:06 PM
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hmpf, i post a good point and nothing
28/04/2011 11:09:53 PM
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you could say the same about a lot of the relationships in this series
28/04/2011 04:59:19 PM
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I agree there are plenty of underdeveloped and somewhat one-sided relationships in the series
28/04/2011 08:15:52 PM
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Re: I agree there are plenty of underdeveloped and somewhat one-sided relationships in the series
29/04/2011 06:55:14 PM
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In regards to the letters...
28/04/2011 05:28:13 PM
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But Gawyn was not Egwene's subject
28/04/2011 06:09:31 PM
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Which was why I thought it was appropriate, since he meant to act as Egwene's Warder.
28/04/2011 06:19:53 PM
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The only issue is that Warders are not minions - they are honored junior partners.
28/04/2011 07:39:18 PM
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No, the junior partners are Accepted. Warders are essentially personal bodyguards and/or assistants.
28/04/2011 08:00:17 PM
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Accepted are not anything, let alone junior partners. Don't think N&E's experience was typical
28/04/2011 09:32:22 PM
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Here's the thing though...
28/04/2011 11:20:32 PM
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No, but it's cute and quirky when Faile does it.
29/04/2011 03:06:50 PM
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But...
29/04/2011 10:52:03 PM
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That's not really clear
29/04/2011 11:41:20 PM
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Actually, it is...
30/04/2011 06:37:42 PM
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Re: Actually, it is...
30/04/2011 11:17:21 PM
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Didn't Siuan, Gareth and Gawyn tell her about the Bloodknife they encountered?
02/05/2011 02:33:08 PM
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Re: Accepted are not anything, let alone junior partners. Don't think N&E's experience was typical
28/04/2011 11:36:24 PM
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My two cents: yes, a little, maybe, and possibly not.
28/04/2011 06:05:09 PM
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Regarding your reference to another Emond's Fielder: What are you talking about?
28/04/2011 09:06:13 PM
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both together, couldn't separate them in my mind - perrin's evasiveness or nyn's trickiness *NM*
28/04/2011 10:16:57 PM
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It isn't the worst romance in WoT
28/04/2011 08:10:23 PM
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Galad is a great option for a political marriage
28/04/2011 09:04:46 PM
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Yes, but...
28/04/2011 09:40:39 PM
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but galad knew nothing of berelain's closeness to rand, so that couldn't have affected anything
28/04/2011 10:12:23 PM
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Yes. An often overlooked point is that ELAYNE, not Egwene, gains the most power in ToM
28/04/2011 09:42:43 PM
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Except they're both really hot.
28/04/2011 10:01:46 PM
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I can only quibble; Egwene became so insufferable in ToM I'm convinced her fate will be unpleasant.
04/05/2011 12:41:53 AM
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Siuan...
04/05/2011 05:42:59 AM
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Re: Siuan screwed up big time.
07/05/2011 03:35:46 AM
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Good points all round (do you switch brains when getting into real world politics? ) & re: the Talk
12/05/2011 02:04:06 PM
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Thanks, (and no, you just become less and less astute as we move farther from fiction. )
15/05/2011 11:46:41 PM
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