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Re: Siuan screwed up big time. Joel Send a noteboard - 07/05/2011 03:35:46 AM
Siuans two decades of manipulative scheming made her Amyrlin and thereby gave Moiraine the resources and latitude to find, protect and prepare Rand for his destiny, but also created the enduring legacy of suspicion and betrayal that deposed and stilled her. That might be excused as a necessary evil to ensure the Dragon reaches the Last Battle (she seems to justified it thus to herself), except that had she not been so consistently devious and tight lipped about all her activities the Sitters would not have been so receptive to whispers against her, and had she involved anyone but Moiraine (even Leanne, who was pointedly excluded) she might have had some whisper herself about what was brewing. Instead, Elaida was able to buttonhole Alviarin without her notice and the two of them to muster most of the Hall against the Amyrlin under her very nose. Against that backdrop Egwenes treatment of Gawyn is par for the course; when SOP is "trust no one; they're all too stupid/wicked to merit trust" it's no surprise her lover is lumped into the category along with her childhood friends, allies and mentor. Egwene plays her own game, and plays it very well, but everyone we've seen play that game eventually and dramatically LOST.

Actually, Siuan did want to involve other people. Moiriane was the one who put her foot down and said it would have to be just the two of them. Thank the Creator for that, because the first person Siuan wanted to turn to was Sheriam!

They really had no way back then to know who was Black Ajah, and they were very wise to shut up.

And while Siuan's silence did lead to her downfall, its a small price to pay compared to the alternatives. Even if all the women they involved in their plan turned out to be trustworthy, it would have meant a lot more Aes Sedai around Rand.

As for Merrilor breaking Egwene... I'd just re-read the whole Latra Pose vs. Lews Therin situation. Neither broke the other, and in the end, both played their part to save the world. RJ was very clearly setting up Egwene to be the Third Age's Latra Pose. The reason she came across so unevenly in ToM is because these were all scenes Jordan had less to do with than the Egwene scenes in tGS. Brandon just botched the characterization completely.

Siuan didn't have to be secretive and manipulative as she was just to conceal her knowledge of what Moiraine was up to with Rand, but she was busy "preparing" (read: Manipulating) world leaders into accepting him while being just as careful to make sure no one in the Tower knew what she was up to despite making it obvious to EVERYONE she was up to something. Even if she didn't reveal anything to anyone she could've remained more involved and engaged with Tower leaders than she had to have been for one dissident White and a long absent Red to engineer a coup requiring most of the Hall. They were ripe for her overthrow because they'd been reduced to isolated spectators (and often not even that) and lackeys in a game whose goals and rules only Siuan knew.

As for setting Egwene up as Latrae, that may well be, but how much she did to "save the world" remains to be seen. HER plan was to use create the Choedan Kal to reimprison the DO; there's no evidence that was even possible, and had the Shadow known the access keys were within territory they captured it could've been disastrous. All we really know was that the full implementation of LTTs plan required women and was thus significantly impaired without them (though is his comments in ToM indicate he hadn't anticipated and consequently planned for the DOs response anyway, so in that sense perhaps Latrae did save the world). However, returning to what I consider an overarching theme of the series, within the context of LTT vs. Latrae it seems clear that HE was the one acting preemptively and unilaterally and Latrae was a check on that. The current timeline may represent a role reversal in that Rand/LTT is generally a lot more inclusive and open to dissent than Egwene (with the notable exception of the Seals, but most relevant parties agree with him there anyway, and he's still stated his intent to make an ARGUMENT, which Egwene has already committed to rejecting in much the way that Latrae rejected LTTs strike at Shayol Ghul).

In ToM Brandon merely continued and developed Egwenes plotline in the way it was already heading. I'd have to think him a very clumsy and tactless writer to believe he portrayed Egwene as unbearably as she appears in the last book, and I don't. If I didn't consider her narrative value a lot higher in the scenario I described I probably wouldn't support it. ;)
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Egwene vs. Gawyn (ToM spoilers of course) - 28/04/2011 05:01:46 AM 3950 Views
There's fifty feet of crap between rock bottom and your post... *NM* - 28/04/2011 07:40:04 AM 470 Views
Almost three days since the last post...at least I'm trying. - 28/04/2011 12:17:59 PM 930 Views
Sorry about that... - 28/04/2011 10:58:50 PM 989 Views
Ah, its always good to see a good Egwene rant. Bravo! NM *NM* - 28/04/2011 01:58:46 PM 707 Views
Great work, Cannoli - 28/04/2011 02:09:28 PM 944 Views
Regarding the mother's permission.... - 28/04/2011 07:26:29 PM 1012 Views
while i agree with you on most of this - 28/04/2011 04:53:06 PM 1074 Views
hmpf, i post a good point and nothing - 28/04/2011 11:09:53 PM 851 Views
Everybody agrees with you, that's why there were no replies *NM* - 28/04/2011 11:29:13 PM 456 Views
Here's a scary thought - 28/04/2011 11:54:50 PM 1154 Views
OMGWTFBBQ!? - 28/04/2011 11:58:37 PM 912 Views
In regards to the letters... - 28/04/2011 05:28:13 PM 1115 Views
But Gawyn was not Egwene's subject - 28/04/2011 06:09:31 PM 929 Views
Which was why I thought it was appropriate, since he meant to act as Egwene's Warder. - 28/04/2011 06:19:53 PM 893 Views
The only issue is that Warders are not minions - they are honored junior partners. - 28/04/2011 07:39:18 PM 1049 Views
No, the junior partners are Accepted. Warders are essentially personal bodyguards and/or assistants. - 28/04/2011 08:00:17 PM 846 Views
Marriage - 28/04/2011 08:27:53 PM 870 Views
Accepted are not anything, let alone junior partners. Don't think N&E's experience was typical - 28/04/2011 09:32:22 PM 1072 Views
Here's the thing though... - 28/04/2011 11:20:32 PM 897 Views
No, but it's cute and quirky when Faile does it. - 29/04/2011 03:06:50 PM 1065 Views
But... - 29/04/2011 10:52:03 PM 862 Views
That's not really clear - 29/04/2011 11:41:20 PM 990 Views
Actually, it is... - 30/04/2011 06:37:42 PM 1003 Views
Re: Actually, it is... - 30/04/2011 11:17:21 PM 883 Views
Didn't Siuan, Gareth and Gawyn tell her about the Bloodknife they encountered? - 02/05/2011 02:33:08 PM 889 Views
It isn't the worst romance in WoT - 28/04/2011 08:10:23 PM 1199 Views
Re: It isn't the worst romance in WoT - 28/04/2011 08:25:31 PM 1118 Views
thumbs up to you both *NM* - 28/04/2011 08:45:51 PM 438 Views
Re: It isn't the worst romance in WoT - 28/04/2011 08:46:37 PM 1010 Views
Galad is a great option for a political marriage - 28/04/2011 09:04:46 PM 882 Views
Yes, but... - 28/04/2011 09:40:39 PM 926 Views
but galad knew nothing of berelain's closeness to rand, so that couldn't have affected anything - 28/04/2011 10:12:23 PM 961 Views
Exactly - 28/04/2011 10:27:04 PM 805 Views
Yes. An often overlooked point is that ELAYNE, not Egwene, gains the most power in ToM - 28/04/2011 09:42:43 PM 1261 Views
Except... - 28/04/2011 11:16:25 PM 923 Views
Well... - 29/04/2011 12:14:42 AM 875 Views
Re: Well... - 29/04/2011 08:39:37 AM 860 Views
Except they're both really hot. - 28/04/2011 10:01:46 PM 1058 Views
They were naive - 28/04/2011 11:10:34 PM 884 Views
Re: They were naive - 29/04/2011 03:18:42 PM 1122 Views
I can only quibble; Egwene became so insufferable in ToM I'm convinced her fate will be unpleasant. - 04/05/2011 12:41:53 AM 1024 Views
Siuan... - 04/05/2011 05:42:59 AM 1029 Views
Re: Siuan screwed up big time. - 07/05/2011 03:35:46 AM 898 Views
Re: Siuan screwed up big time. - 12/05/2011 02:13:08 PM 887 Views
"McClellanesque", eh? I'll have to remember that one. - 16/05/2011 12:12:23 AM 1160 Views

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