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Re: Just a general comment... Sidious Send a noteboard - 20/09/2009 09:59:51 PM
I could and do disagree with a number of the individual points you raise in this post, but I think we will be going around in circles if I address each one again. We know where we both stand with respect to this issue.

But I do want to approach this from a broader perspective. When I look at the effort involved in constructing a decent plot, and creating a story with strong, menacing villains and a sense of tension for the reader, then I try to think how best the characters could be used to provide a good climax to the story.

In all honesty, I would find it peculiar if the build up that has gone into Demandred's persona is wasted in the final volume. I confess that the biggest reason for my interest in Demandred is the severe lack of decent villains in this series. Demandred has the sense of mystery, the aura of greatness and the necessary attributes to rescue what is left of the series.

The mad men, pleasure seeking women and other incompetent members of the Forsaken have severely damaged this series. The lack of strong villains is so noticeable that RJ had to come out himself and defend the bad guys with his famous reference to the Light being a boxer that is down and out and left with only a last desperate punch in the final round to try and snatch victory from the jaws of defeat.

Frankly, that is not the sense that one gets when confronted with the comical villains in this series. Sure, the PLOT may lead towards the Shadow growing stronger, but the CHARACTERIZATION has not contributed to that in the slightest.

RJ has gone overboard in portraying the Forsaken as flawed and banal. This series NEEDS some kick-ass villainy and my hopes are pinned on Demandred because, frankly, there is no one else left. He is the one remaining Forsaken who has not been openly humiliated, portrayed in a subservient role or as otherwise having failed spectacularly.

And the fact that he was "the second greatest man of the Age of Legends" means that there is decent material to work with if you want to construct a strong villain.

Anyway, that is my overarching point of view, without delving into individual attributes as we have done a million times before - and will no doubt do again as more information is revealed.


Trust me, no one in the whole world understands what you are saying better than I do. The lack of decent villainy is my greatest disappointment in the series. When I first read WoT I was enthralled by the potentially legendary villainy who have all been thrown down the toilet without the loss of a single main character of the Light. The theme that good always wins is so saccharin it can knot even the strongest stomach.

That said, this is why I'm convinced I'm right and you're not - because I've accepted now that this is how RJ views the world, and his own fantasy world too. The Forsaken have never achieved anything of note despite his ridiculous contention that they're winning the race. Why should Demandred be different? He won't be. You're totally right that the series needs an act of supreme villainy but I don't think it will happen. It's just too much to ask for when RJ has humiliated/castrated/killed/snuffed almost every other villain of note. The Shadow are more of a parody than a true organization of terror. Consider how ridiculous Mesaana has become. I truly used to have some high regard of her as a villain, but she's a total idiot now and she speaks like a child. In LoC she was a considerably easier villain to read about.

Forsaken deaths are almost always humiliating, but thematic as to the nature of evil and good. It all started when we were introduced to Balthamel who couldn't even deflect a Nym from killing him. After that Aginor actually burnt himself out - and we were told right then that he was 2nd only to LTT. Even then I recall my stomach groaning as the inevitable sewer for villainy opened and the FS number decreased to 11. After that we saw Be'lal die to a 3rd Age AS which opened the floodgates to all future FS deaths... Cadsuane could do the same to Demandred for all we know. We saw Rahvin burned by Nynaeve, we saw Sammael eaten by Mashadar, Aginor killed again etc. I waited for five years for the terror of Semirhage to show her face, but she shot a single fireball and that was it. We saw an almost untrained Nynaeve defeat Moghedien with all her 2nd age knowledge. In short, it's a joke.

I'm only consoled by Lanfear, who luckily is my favourite character, who put on the most spectacular of duels with Rand. She killed everyone who was not Rand, or severely injured them, and then put him on his knees with almost shakespearean drama. It was everything I ever wanted from the series, and she didn't even die - she merely vanished. Had Lanfear been knifed by Moiraine or the equivalent, there is no doubt that I would have stopped reading the series.

Now the second greatest man from the AOL is a feat which is appealing, and that's why I do think he'll show his strategic vision and prowess. As a channeler I don't think he's better than Lanfear, Sammael, Semirhage or Graendal - so I don't think you'll get much more there. The Cleansing threw the Forsaken into the battleground and they all suffered to greater or lesser extents. If there was any evidence that Demandred was set up to be the grand display at the end of the series, I would almost welcome it, but I think he hasn't been shown to be superior to the other six, and RJ will give him a parallel plot, which is always disappointing to me. But it always happens. After Semirhage, I don't have much hope for anything. I don't think Graendal will achieve much, but she'll probably die in this book.

I understand your emotions and your obsession with Demandred becoming something. You have such high hopes for him as a villain, but surely the other Forsaken taught you a lesson of what to expect?
Wheel of Time board admin
Fan of Lanfear
This message last edited by Sidious on 20/09/2009 at 10:04:11 PM
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TGS Prologue - your thoughts (part 2) *spoilers* - 16/09/2009 04:55:21 AM 3263 Views
Where can i find it at? Can someone give me a link? *NM* - 18/09/2009 02:21:10 AM 213 Views
mobipocket.com - 18/09/2009 02:53:13 AM 662 Views
Thanks, It was interesting especially the last part of the prologue *NM* - 20/09/2009 02:42:28 AM 265 Views
Yep, to be truthful I really didn't see that coming. *NM* - 20/09/2009 03:03:12 AM 211 Views
A pointless survey - take your guess at who wrote what of the Prologue - 18/09/2009 01:30:24 PM 563 Views
As short as the prologue was - 18/09/2009 04:27:54 PM 572 Views
Re: A pointless survey - take your guess at who wrote what of the Prologue - 18/09/2009 07:08:43 PM 437 Views
How do you think this prologue compares to the previous ones? - 18/09/2009 01:52:59 PM 528 Views
Did only the audiobook ppl get the 2:30 of Harriet at the end? - 18/09/2009 03:07:27 PM 559 Views
nope and now I hate you *NM* - 18/09/2009 04:59:48 PM 305 Views
The interview - 18/09/2009 09:40:23 PM 590 Views
The prologue gives us strong evidence that Graendal is weaker than Demi or Semi - 18/09/2009 03:55:58 PM 641 Views
Well, Lanfear... - 20/09/2009 11:33:22 PM 616 Views
Is it me or do the Forsaken seem more viscious? - 18/09/2009 04:17:22 PM 631 Views
yep, leaner and meaner...except for mesaana-she's still twitchy after shadar haran *NM* - 18/09/2009 05:09:29 PM 315 Views
You blame her? *NM* - 18/09/2009 08:05:46 PM 252 Views
Not at all, I'd be more than "twitchy" if that happened to me - 19/09/2009 12:00:57 AM 514 Views
I get the feeling they want to jump ship - 19/09/2009 02:13:51 PM 585 Views
Trollocs! - 18/09/2009 05:35:12 PM 635 Views
Why not a gray man then? - 18/09/2009 07:52:55 PM 649 Views
I'm going to guess it was Demandred - 18/09/2009 08:12:19 PM 586 Views
What Cache is in Ebou Dar? - 19/09/2009 12:05:05 AM 613 Views
Because they wanted to destroy as much of the force as possible - 19/09/2009 12:07:57 AM 521 Views
But there's no plausible deniability - 19/09/2009 12:50:42 AM 566 Views
But even several grey men or slayer aren't going to get the deed done - 19/09/2009 02:28:36 AM 590 Views
Why? - 19/09/2009 03:25:34 AM 503 Views
simple answer:scouts - 19/09/2009 04:47:04 AM 524 Views
What day is it? Are the Suldam & Damane in the area? - 19/09/2009 05:32:54 PM 474 Views
Who is Graendal going to wack? - 18/09/2009 06:00:12 PM 596 Views
I think it could be Tam. *NM* - 18/09/2009 06:05:12 PM 281 Views
Great idea. - 18/09/2009 07:12:40 PM 554 Views
No one. - 23/09/2009 02:05:06 AM 466 Views
A possibility, but... - 23/09/2009 11:53:07 AM 515 Views
Well, yeah... - 23/09/2009 04:02:47 PM 502 Views
Isn't it obvious...Semirhage sent the Trollocs - 18/09/2009 06:38:15 PM 643 Views
Fades are smart enough though - 18/09/2009 07:54:02 PM 487 Views
Mesaana's statement gives us a big clue about Demandred's and Moridin's whereabouts - 18/09/2009 09:11:49 PM 690 Views
Or - 18/09/2009 10:38:52 PM 667 Views
My first thought was - 19/09/2009 02:20:39 AM 538 Views
My favorite quote: "Who will win? The child or the fool?" - Graendal - 18/09/2009 09:48:55 PM 650 Views
*NM* - 19/09/2009 04:20:29 AM 357 Views
but she didn't say 'the fool or the fool' - 19/09/2009 02:07:20 PM 554 Views
Yes, because Cannoli has long valued the opinions of the Forsaken... - 20/09/2009 06:10:58 AM 614 Views
Lol *NM* - 20/09/2009 08:26:53 AM 484 Views
Forsaken Chapter - 18/09/2009 10:30:10 PM 615 Views
I agree that Graendal will die in this book.... her and A'rangar *NM* - 19/09/2009 08:14:07 AM 259 Views
Re: Forsaken Chapter - 19/09/2009 09:53:31 AM 642 Views
Wrong... - 19/09/2009 01:41:25 PM 671 Views
I think we'll have to agree to disagree. - 19/09/2009 09:22:38 PM 689 Views
Huh - 19/09/2009 01:46:21 PM 750 Views
Re: Huh - 19/09/2009 02:21:43 PM 653 Views
Re: Huh - 19/09/2009 04:32:50 PM 672 Views
Fair enough... - 19/09/2009 05:08:33 PM 595 Views
Re: Forsaken Chapter - 19/09/2009 05:40:14 PM 524 Views
No, see my response to Agent Orange above. *NM* - 19/09/2009 06:07:14 PM 230 Views
Remove your blinders man... - 19/09/2009 07:16:03 PM 663 Views
After third reread - 18/09/2009 10:58:12 PM 590 Views
Ituralde's plan - 19/09/2009 02:04:58 PM 504 Views
Huh....hadn't thought about that - 19/09/2009 03:07:06 PM 612 Views
This makes perfect sense - 22/09/2009 07:35:49 PM 513 Views
Various comments - 19/09/2009 05:38:21 PM 635 Views
The Dying Man - 19/09/2009 06:48:09 PM 577 Views
Yeah, I thought it was Dobraine as well - 19/09/2009 08:30:13 PM 592 Views
Dobraine seems unlikely... - 20/09/2009 11:30:45 AM 482 Views
Symbolism - 20/09/2009 04:10:53 PM 461 Views
After a reread I think I know who sent the Trollocs - 19/09/2009 08:28:08 PM 542 Views
That is a really stupid idea - 20/09/2009 01:20:09 AM 506 Views
Yeah - 20/09/2009 08:24:18 AM 502 Views
Another reason why Moridin is not Taim - 19/09/2009 08:41:03 PM 525 Views
This isn't evidence. - 19/09/2009 08:51:54 PM 638 Views
It isn't evidence, but it is another perspective to add to the table - 19/09/2009 09:11:15 PM 435 Views
Personally, I disagree. - 20/09/2009 03:22:24 AM 536 Views
Do you think Moridin is struggling like Rand is? - 19/09/2009 10:24:45 PM 449 Views
Re: Do you think Moridin is struggling like Rand is? - 19/09/2009 11:29:36 PM 525 Views
Why is Moridin and not Demandred marshalling the Dark Forces in the Blight? - 19/09/2009 10:35:06 PM 522 Views
I think there are many issues here - 19/09/2009 10:51:13 PM 630 Views
The Malign Influence of the Forsaken - 19/09/2009 11:08:00 PM 542 Views
I have doubts about that degree of conversion - 19/09/2009 11:17:44 PM 479 Views
Its a stretch, but... - 19/09/2009 11:34:28 PM 433 Views
I thought about that - 20/09/2009 08:26:02 AM 476 Views
Levee en Masse - 19/09/2009 10:51:54 PM 547 Views
I think Demendred might take over though - 20/09/2009 05:10:08 PM 434 Views
Did Demandred make the connection between Moridin's phantom hand-pain and Semirhage's firebolt? - 20/09/2009 12:11:32 PM 628 Views
I don't think that Demandred will be a key player at the end with Rand - 20/09/2009 01:00:58 PM 585 Views
Some sweeping statements there... - 20/09/2009 01:21:46 PM 576 Views
Not at all - 20/09/2009 03:34:59 PM 599 Views
A lot of twisting my words there, and direct contradictions of your own points... - 20/09/2009 04:19:57 PM 603 Views
Not really - 20/09/2009 05:12:42 PM 671 Views
I couldn't have summarized it better myself... - 20/09/2009 05:25:56 PM 494 Views
But... - 20/09/2009 06:01:33 PM 594 Views
Possible... - 20/09/2009 06:08:21 PM 507 Views
So that's your argument now? - 20/09/2009 07:35:52 PM 426 Views
I think you took that the wrong way... - 20/09/2009 08:53:28 PM 513 Views
Its simply, really. - 20/09/2009 09:05:42 PM 524 Views
Hmmm... - 20/09/2009 11:10:04 PM 553 Views
Fair enough... - 20/09/2009 11:12:53 PM 424 Views
Sure. *NM* - 20/09/2009 11:25:50 PM 254 Views
Wow, then I think you're in for a surprise - 20/09/2009 08:38:37 PM 489 Views
Well - 20/09/2009 08:56:43 PM 566 Views
Re: Well - 20/09/2009 09:40:51 PM 646 Views
Re: Wow, then I think you're in for a surprise - 20/09/2009 09:07:48 PM 480 Views
Just a general comment... - 20/09/2009 09:13:51 PM 644 Views
Re: Just a general comment... - 20/09/2009 09:59:51 PM 1455 Views
Re: Just a general comment... - 20/09/2009 10:19:14 PM 456 Views
Re: Just a general comment... - 21/09/2009 04:58:38 AM 411 Views
I reject the cult of the "cool" villain. - 20/09/2009 11:24:40 PM 530 Views
I don't really agree - 21/09/2009 05:02:10 AM 480 Views
But these aren't criminals... - 21/09/2009 05:47:40 AM 410 Views
No, just the most heinous criminals imaginable - 21/09/2009 12:43:19 PM 618 Views
Re: No, just the most heinous criminals imaginable - 22/09/2009 10:49:58 PM 541 Views
Doubt it... - 20/09/2009 02:10:37 PM 592 Views
I tend to agree with you, this time. - 20/09/2009 05:05:35 PM 481 Views

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