I could and do disagree with a number of the individual points you raise in this post, but I think we will be going around in circles if I address each one again. We know where we both stand with respect to this issue.
But I do want to approach this from a broader perspective. When I look at the effort involved in constructing a decent plot, and creating a story with strong, menacing villains and a sense of tension for the reader, then I try to think how best the characters could be used to provide a good climax to the story.
In all honesty, I would find it peculiar if the build up that has gone into Demandred's persona is wasted in the final volume. I confess that the biggest reason for my interest in Demandred is the severe lack of decent villains in this series. Demandred has the sense of mystery, the aura of greatness and the necessary attributes to rescue what is left of the series.
The mad men, pleasure seeking women and other incompetent members of the Forsaken have severely damaged this series. The lack of strong villains is so noticeable that RJ had to come out himself and defend the bad guys with his famous reference to the Light being a boxer that is down and out and left with only a last desperate punch in the final round to try and snatch victory from the jaws of defeat.
Frankly, that is not the sense that one gets when confronted with the comical villains in this series. Sure, the PLOT may lead towards the Shadow growing stronger, but the CHARACTERIZATION has not contributed to that in the slightest.
RJ has gone overboard in portraying the Forsaken as flawed and banal. This series NEEDS some kick-ass villainy and my hopes are pinned on Demandred because, frankly, there is no one else left. He is the one remaining Forsaken who has not been openly humiliated, portrayed in a subservient role or as otherwise having failed spectacularly.
And the fact that he was "the second greatest man of the Age of Legends" means that there is decent material to work with if you want to construct a strong villain.
Anyway, that is my overarching point of view, without delving into individual attributes as we have done a million times before - and will no doubt do again as more information is revealed.
But I do want to approach this from a broader perspective. When I look at the effort involved in constructing a decent plot, and creating a story with strong, menacing villains and a sense of tension for the reader, then I try to think how best the characters could be used to provide a good climax to the story.
In all honesty, I would find it peculiar if the build up that has gone into Demandred's persona is wasted in the final volume. I confess that the biggest reason for my interest in Demandred is the severe lack of decent villains in this series. Demandred has the sense of mystery, the aura of greatness and the necessary attributes to rescue what is left of the series.
The mad men, pleasure seeking women and other incompetent members of the Forsaken have severely damaged this series. The lack of strong villains is so noticeable that RJ had to come out himself and defend the bad guys with his famous reference to the Light being a boxer that is down and out and left with only a last desperate punch in the final round to try and snatch victory from the jaws of defeat.
Frankly, that is not the sense that one gets when confronted with the comical villains in this series. Sure, the PLOT may lead towards the Shadow growing stronger, but the CHARACTERIZATION has not contributed to that in the slightest.
RJ has gone overboard in portraying the Forsaken as flawed and banal. This series NEEDS some kick-ass villainy and my hopes are pinned on Demandred because, frankly, there is no one else left. He is the one remaining Forsaken who has not been openly humiliated, portrayed in a subservient role or as otherwise having failed spectacularly.
And the fact that he was "the second greatest man of the Age of Legends" means that there is decent material to work with if you want to construct a strong villain.
Anyway, that is my overarching point of view, without delving into individual attributes as we have done a million times before - and will no doubt do again as more information is revealed.
Trust me, no one in the whole world understands what you are saying better than I do. The lack of decent villainy is my greatest disappointment in the series. When I first read WoT I was enthralled by the potentially legendary villainy who have all been thrown down the toilet without the loss of a single main character of the Light. The theme that good always wins is so saccharin it can knot even the strongest stomach.
That said, this is why I'm convinced I'm right and you're not - because I've accepted now that this is how RJ views the world, and his own fantasy world too. The Forsaken have never achieved anything of note despite his ridiculous contention that they're winning the race. Why should Demandred be different? He won't be. You're totally right that the series needs an act of supreme villainy but I don't think it will happen. It's just too much to ask for when RJ has humiliated/castrated/killed/snuffed almost every other villain of note. The Shadow are more of a parody than a true organization of terror. Consider how ridiculous Mesaana has become. I truly used to have some high regard of her as a villain, but she's a total idiot now and she speaks like a child. In LoC she was a considerably easier villain to read about.
Forsaken deaths are almost always humiliating, but thematic as to the nature of evil and good. It all started when we were introduced to Balthamel who couldn't even deflect a Nym from killing him. After that Aginor actually burnt himself out - and we were told right then that he was 2nd only to LTT. Even then I recall my stomach groaning as the inevitable sewer for villainy opened and the FS number decreased to 11. After that we saw Be'lal die to a 3rd Age AS which opened the floodgates to all future FS deaths... Cadsuane could do the same to Demandred for all we know. We saw Rahvin burned by Nynaeve, we saw Sammael eaten by Mashadar, Aginor killed again etc. I waited for five years for the terror of Semirhage to show her face, but she shot a single fireball and that was it. We saw an almost untrained Nynaeve defeat Moghedien with all her 2nd age knowledge. In short, it's a joke.
I'm only consoled by Lanfear, who luckily is my favourite character, who put on the most spectacular of duels with Rand. She killed everyone who was not Rand, or severely injured them, and then put him on his knees with almost shakespearean drama. It was everything I ever wanted from the series, and she didn't even die - she merely vanished. Had Lanfear been knifed by Moiraine or the equivalent, there is no doubt that I would have stopped reading the series.
Now the second greatest man from the AOL is a feat which is appealing, and that's why I do think he'll show his strategic vision and prowess. As a channeler I don't think he's better than Lanfear, Sammael, Semirhage or Graendal - so I don't think you'll get much more there. The Cleansing threw the Forsaken into the battleground and they all suffered to greater or lesser extents. If there was any evidence that Demandred was set up to be the grand display at the end of the series, I would almost welcome it, but I think he hasn't been shown to be superior to the other six, and RJ will give him a parallel plot, which is always disappointing to me. But it always happens. After Semirhage, I don't have much hope for anything. I don't think Graendal will achieve much, but she'll probably die in this book.
I understand your emotions and your obsession with Demandred becoming something. You have such high hopes for him as a villain, but surely the other Forsaken taught you a lesson of what to expect?
Wheel of Time board admin
Fan of Lanfear
Fan of Lanfear
This message last edited by Sidious on 20/09/2009 at 10:04:11 PM
TGS Prologue - your thoughts (part 2) *spoilers*
16/09/2009 04:55:21 AM
- 3263 Views
Where can i find it at? Can someone give me a link? *NM*
18/09/2009 02:21:10 AM
- 213 Views
mobipocket.com
18/09/2009 02:53:13 AM
- 662 Views
Thanks, It was interesting especially the last part of the prologue *NM*
20/09/2009 02:42:28 AM
- 265 Views
A pointless survey - take your guess at who wrote what of the Prologue
18/09/2009 01:30:24 PM
- 563 Views
Re: A pointless survey - take your guess at who wrote what of the Prologue
18/09/2009 07:08:43 PM
- 437 Views
The prologue gives us strong evidence that Graendal is weaker than Demi or Semi
18/09/2009 03:55:58 PM
- 641 Views
I'm a little surprised nobody is discussing this. I thought this would get more attention. *NM*
20/09/2009 09:17:57 PM
- 317 Views
Is it me or do the Forsaken seem more viscious?
18/09/2009 04:17:22 PM
- 631 Views
yep, leaner and meaner...except for mesaana-she's still twitchy after shadar haran *NM*
18/09/2009 05:09:29 PM
- 315 Views
Trollocs!
18/09/2009 05:35:12 PM
- 635 Views
Why not a gray man then?
18/09/2009 07:52:55 PM
- 649 Views
Because they wanted to destroy as much of the force as possible
19/09/2009 12:07:57 AM
- 521 Views
But there's no plausible deniability
19/09/2009 12:50:42 AM
- 566 Views
But even several grey men or slayer aren't going to get the deed done
19/09/2009 02:28:36 AM
- 590 Views
Who is Graendal going to wack?
18/09/2009 06:00:12 PM
- 596 Views
I think it could be Tam. *NM*
18/09/2009 06:05:12 PM
- 281 Views
Great idea.
18/09/2009 07:12:40 PM
- 554 Views
Its about time for Perrin to reunite with Rand he's got Faile back
18/09/2009 08:15:47 PM
- 533 Views
Re: Its about time for Perrin to reunite with Rand he's got Faile back
18/09/2009 10:41:12 PM
- 546 Views
Mesaana's statement gives us a big clue about Demandred's and Moridin's whereabouts
18/09/2009 09:11:49 PM
- 690 Views
My favorite quote: "Who will win? The child or the fool?" - Graendal
18/09/2009 09:48:55 PM
- 650 Views
but she didn't say 'the fool or the fool'
19/09/2009 02:07:20 PM
- 554 Views
Yes, because Cannoli has long valued the opinions of the Forsaken...
20/09/2009 06:10:58 AM
- 614 Views
Forsaken Chapter
18/09/2009 10:30:10 PM
- 615 Views
I agree that Graendal will die in this book.... her and A'rangar *NM*
19/09/2009 08:14:07 AM
- 259 Views
Various comments
19/09/2009 05:38:21 PM
- 635 Views
The Dying Man
19/09/2009 06:48:09 PM
- 577 Views
After a reread I think I know who sent the Trollocs
19/09/2009 08:28:08 PM
- 542 Views
Another reason why Moridin is not Taim
19/09/2009 08:41:03 PM
- 525 Views
This isn't evidence.
19/09/2009 08:51:54 PM
- 638 Views
It isn't evidence, but it is another perspective to add to the table
19/09/2009 09:11:15 PM
- 435 Views
Why is Moridin and not Demandred marshalling the Dark Forces in the Blight?
19/09/2009 10:35:06 PM
- 522 Views
I think there are many issues here
19/09/2009 10:51:13 PM
- 630 Views
The Malign Influence of the Forsaken
19/09/2009 11:08:00 PM
- 542 Views
I have doubts about that degree of conversion
19/09/2009 11:17:44 PM
- 479 Views
Re: Why is Moridin and not Demandred marshalling the Dark Forces in the Blight?
20/09/2009 09:44:06 AM
- 615 Views
Did Demandred make the connection between Moridin's phantom hand-pain and Semirhage's firebolt?
20/09/2009 12:11:32 PM
- 628 Views
I don't think that Demandred will be a key player at the end with Rand
20/09/2009 01:00:58 PM
- 585 Views
Some sweeping statements there...
20/09/2009 01:21:46 PM
- 576 Views
Not at all
20/09/2009 03:34:59 PM
- 599 Views
A lot of twisting my words there, and direct contradictions of your own points...
20/09/2009 04:19:57 PM
- 603 Views
Not really
20/09/2009 05:12:42 PM
- 671 Views
I couldn't have summarized it better myself...
20/09/2009 05:25:56 PM
- 494 Views
But...
20/09/2009 06:01:33 PM
- 594 Views
Possible...
20/09/2009 06:08:21 PM
- 507 Views
So that's your argument now?
20/09/2009 07:35:52 PM
- 426 Views
I think you took that the wrong way...
20/09/2009 08:53:28 PM
- 513 Views
Wow, then I think you're in for a surprise
20/09/2009 08:38:37 PM
- 489 Views
Just a general comment...
20/09/2009 09:13:51 PM
- 644 Views
Re: Just a general comment...
20/09/2009 09:59:51 PM
- 1455 Views
I reject the cult of the "cool" villain.
20/09/2009 11:24:40 PM
- 530 Views
I don't really agree
21/09/2009 05:02:10 AM
- 480 Views
But these aren't criminals...
21/09/2009 05:47:40 AM
- 410 Views