My two cents: yes, a little, maybe, and possibly not.
newyorkersedai Send a noteboard - 28/04/2011 06:05:09 PM
My thoughts are sort of condensed and focused into the last four paras, so jump down there if you prefer.
In short, Egwene's post-unification attitude about the rebellion seemed tailor-made to support eggy-flamers ("Flaming Eggs"?). She wasn't there when Salidar started, nor when the Tower collapsed. She herself even helped cause it (by inspiring Gawyn and Galad, the handsome, chivalric, wealthy Tweedledumb and Tweedlebraindead of Randland). Sure, they were using her and putting her in mortal danger, but she choose to join them and even militated the declaration of War.
After all the judgmentalism, after all the moments of self-congratulation, after all the good fortune, she reams out a group of women for not accepting: harsh, surprisingly incompetent leadership (how could Elaida get that much control, being so dumb and emotional); BA penetration; the disbanding of an Ajah; a minimally-legal at best, secret overthrow of their head.
It's true that such a person, taking a new position in the face of past and future crises, might need to speak words of personal and group-inclusive strength. She went over the top. BUT:
Gawyn is an idiot for saying he'd kill Rand asap. Even if he killed Morgase, you gotta wait til after TG. I'm glad Eggy extracted that promise & I don't care if she was manipulative, because he was irrational (and dumb).
And, as usual, poontang is not to blame. Or even to be called "poontang," though I did recognize your use of it as comedic instead of misogynistic or mean. As usual, poontang is just a red herring.
Eggy is clearly hiding from her fears and insecurities by delaying their wedding. She's got the moment on her, then she suddenly changes direction. We surely remember another Emond's Fielder putting off commitment, right? In that scene, I almost thought the EF was *making up* the customs of the village.
It seems silly, really, to think that it's girlish modesty (I love breasts, but please, AS, stop baring them) or nervousness, given the position she's taken (world freaking power) and things Egwene has done. I'd respect it more if it weren't nervous jitters, but rather a doubt over Gawyn himself. Because Gawyn is kind of a guy to doubt marrying even from his own POVs.
The biggest sexual disservice she's doing only comes from two things: (a) she was awful friendly with him before, in taverns, at that; (b) she spies on and has had him in (at least, iirc) his dreams. The bed thing was just dumb, maybe BS didn't want to write a sex scene. I haven't read his other work to know if he can handle those...
Those reasons are big enough that I'll ignore your (very good) points on how Eggy has flouted EF traditions loud and proud from the get-go.
Those reasons do suck, but being a straight guy seems to mean accepting/dealing with women doing sucky little things like Egwene did. I'd still say Egwene doesn't deserve a Prince - maybe a Congar or a milliner's son, someone who doesn't have other responsibilities like Gawyn does. But I'm willing to accept that she deserves him.
And, of course, she doesn't owe him sex. I was thinking about this the other day, and while it works as a funny comment, it doesn't work as a literal truth. If you don't want someone to "know" you, even just not this minute or day, then they shouldn't. Sure, I'd want to put out for a woman who pulls me off a curb before a car hits me. But I wouldn't really owe it to her if I didn't want her - I'm just a little easy, if discriminating; that's me.
To my mind, the biggest problems are (a) the push-and-pull of everything around and after her rescue, and (b) delegating their communications. She *should* have been grateful - you're right that he had no way of taking her orders. This goes extra when her right-hand woman, Siuan, runs out to save her. You need people at your workplace to do things the way you insist, but Egwene *did* make the whole misunderstanding harsh for everyone.
Lots of relationships can be like that, even good ones, until the two people learn to communicate, open up, move past their baggage, etc. I wouldn't want to be with either of them, but I appreciate that the story makes them nearly-equally childish about each other (he has to respect her job bc she's gotta look strong, after all). Still, it does paint Gawyn as being "right" about the threats.
And she was really awful and thoughtless with the letters. For all the mistakes men and women can make with or among each other, that sort of thing would make most think, "oh god you're lame now I'm embarrassed I liked you."
I saved the point that might be most important to me for last: I honestly can't see how she's been so physical with him in the past if their issues are this big; this is what you're not looking at.
They're snapping at each other and being incredibly inconsiderate for days on end. How would you want to be physical with someone who's been insulting you? Or who you dislike so much that you talk to them like they're insolent, or exist to obey you? What are their issues, and how have they got so intimate so often without confronting them?
This is why sex isn't the issue. Why would you have to virtually throw someone away in order to consider that you're not being fair with them? Why would someone have to save your life, or accomplish a miracle (e.g., kill Mesaana) for you to decide that you'll accommodate their needs as best you can? I wouldn't regularly grope a girl in a Cairhienin inn if I felt like that; definitely not with Aiel around.
In any case, this series is sometimes spotty with growing, as opposed to established, romantic relationships. Often, at least, they're usually fun. Ava points it out better than I do, but it's definitely possible in WoT romance. Then again, we're talking about a very oddly-minded, conflicted, dangerous young guy and a queen who reverts to childishness in many different ways...
In short, Egwene's post-unification attitude about the rebellion seemed tailor-made to support eggy-flamers ("Flaming Eggs"?). She wasn't there when Salidar started, nor when the Tower collapsed. She herself even helped cause it (by inspiring Gawyn and Galad, the handsome, chivalric, wealthy Tweedledumb and Tweedlebraindead of Randland). Sure, they were using her and putting her in mortal danger, but she choose to join them and even militated the declaration of War.
After all the judgmentalism, after all the moments of self-congratulation, after all the good fortune, she reams out a group of women for not accepting: harsh, surprisingly incompetent leadership (how could Elaida get that much control, being so dumb and emotional); BA penetration; the disbanding of an Ajah; a minimally-legal at best, secret overthrow of their head.
It's true that such a person, taking a new position in the face of past and future crises, might need to speak words of personal and group-inclusive strength. She went over the top. BUT:
Gawyn is an idiot for saying he'd kill Rand asap. Even if he killed Morgase, you gotta wait til after TG. I'm glad Eggy extracted that promise & I don't care if she was manipulative, because he was irrational (and dumb).
And, as usual, poontang is not to blame. Or even to be called "poontang," though I did recognize your use of it as comedic instead of misogynistic or mean. As usual, poontang is just a red herring.
Eggy is clearly hiding from her fears and insecurities by delaying their wedding. She's got the moment on her, then she suddenly changes direction. We surely remember another Emond's Fielder putting off commitment, right? In that scene, I almost thought the EF was *making up* the customs of the village.
It seems silly, really, to think that it's girlish modesty (I love breasts, but please, AS, stop baring them) or nervousness, given the position she's taken (world freaking power) and things Egwene has done. I'd respect it more if it weren't nervous jitters, but rather a doubt over Gawyn himself. Because Gawyn is kind of a guy to doubt marrying even from his own POVs.
The biggest sexual disservice she's doing only comes from two things: (a) she was awful friendly with him before, in taverns, at that; (b) she spies on and has had him in (at least, iirc) his dreams. The bed thing was just dumb, maybe BS didn't want to write a sex scene. I haven't read his other work to know if he can handle those...
Those reasons are big enough that I'll ignore your (very good) points on how Eggy has flouted EF traditions loud and proud from the get-go.
Those reasons do suck, but being a straight guy seems to mean accepting/dealing with women doing sucky little things like Egwene did. I'd still say Egwene doesn't deserve a Prince - maybe a Congar or a milliner's son, someone who doesn't have other responsibilities like Gawyn does. But I'm willing to accept that she deserves him.
And, of course, she doesn't owe him sex. I was thinking about this the other day, and while it works as a funny comment, it doesn't work as a literal truth. If you don't want someone to "know" you, even just not this minute or day, then they shouldn't. Sure, I'd want to put out for a woman who pulls me off a curb before a car hits me. But I wouldn't really owe it to her if I didn't want her - I'm just a little easy, if discriminating; that's me.
To my mind, the biggest problems are (a) the push-and-pull of everything around and after her rescue, and (b) delegating their communications. She *should* have been grateful - you're right that he had no way of taking her orders. This goes extra when her right-hand woman, Siuan, runs out to save her. You need people at your workplace to do things the way you insist, but Egwene *did* make the whole misunderstanding harsh for everyone.
Lots of relationships can be like that, even good ones, until the two people learn to communicate, open up, move past their baggage, etc. I wouldn't want to be with either of them, but I appreciate that the story makes them nearly-equally childish about each other (he has to respect her job bc she's gotta look strong, after all). Still, it does paint Gawyn as being "right" about the threats.
And she was really awful and thoughtless with the letters. For all the mistakes men and women can make with or among each other, that sort of thing would make most think, "oh god you're lame now I'm embarrassed I liked you."
I saved the point that might be most important to me for last: I honestly can't see how she's been so physical with him in the past if their issues are this big; this is what you're not looking at.
They're snapping at each other and being incredibly inconsiderate for days on end. How would you want to be physical with someone who's been insulting you? Or who you dislike so much that you talk to them like they're insolent, or exist to obey you? What are their issues, and how have they got so intimate so often without confronting them?
This is why sex isn't the issue. Why would you have to virtually throw someone away in order to consider that you're not being fair with them? Why would someone have to save your life, or accomplish a miracle (e.g., kill Mesaana) for you to decide that you'll accommodate their needs as best you can? I wouldn't regularly grope a girl in a Cairhienin inn if I felt like that; definitely not with Aiel around.
In any case, this series is sometimes spotty with growing, as opposed to established, romantic relationships. Often, at least, they're usually fun. Ava points it out better than I do, but it's definitely possible in WoT romance. Then again, we're talking about a very oddly-minded, conflicted, dangerous young guy and a queen who reverts to childishness in many different ways...
This message last edited by newyorkersedai on 28/04/2011 at 06:19:53 PM
Egwene vs. Gawyn (ToM spoilers of course)
28/04/2011 05:01:46 AM
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There's fifty feet of crap between rock bottom and your post... *NM*
28/04/2011 07:40:04 AM
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Almost three days since the last post...at least I'm trying.
28/04/2011 12:17:59 PM
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What is to discuss here? You hate Egwene and will spin anything to put her in a negative light
28/04/2011 12:59:58 PM
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But he's so good at it. all the pieces are in there and close to the right place... like a picasso.
03/05/2011 12:51:54 AM
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I'd say there's no need to take it so seriously when there's so few posts lately. You should see
28/04/2011 05:59:19 PM
- 908 Views
while i agree with you on most of this
28/04/2011 04:53:06 PM
- 1086 Views
hmpf, i post a good point and nothing
28/04/2011 11:09:53 PM
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you could say the same about a lot of the relationships in this series
28/04/2011 04:59:19 PM
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I agree there are plenty of underdeveloped and somewhat one-sided relationships in the series
28/04/2011 08:15:52 PM
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Re: I agree there are plenty of underdeveloped and somewhat one-sided relationships in the series
29/04/2011 06:55:14 PM
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In regards to the letters...
28/04/2011 05:28:13 PM
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But Gawyn was not Egwene's subject
28/04/2011 06:09:31 PM
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Which was why I thought it was appropriate, since he meant to act as Egwene's Warder.
28/04/2011 06:19:53 PM
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The only issue is that Warders are not minions - they are honored junior partners.
28/04/2011 07:39:18 PM
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No, the junior partners are Accepted. Warders are essentially personal bodyguards and/or assistants.
28/04/2011 08:00:17 PM
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Accepted are not anything, let alone junior partners. Don't think N&E's experience was typical
28/04/2011 09:32:22 PM
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Here's the thing though...
28/04/2011 11:20:32 PM
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No, but it's cute and quirky when Faile does it.
29/04/2011 03:06:50 PM
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But...
29/04/2011 10:52:03 PM
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That's not really clear
29/04/2011 11:41:20 PM
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Actually, it is...
30/04/2011 06:37:42 PM
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Re: Actually, it is...
30/04/2011 11:17:21 PM
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Didn't Siuan, Gareth and Gawyn tell her about the Bloodknife they encountered?
02/05/2011 02:33:08 PM
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Re: Accepted are not anything, let alone junior partners. Don't think N&E's experience was typical
28/04/2011 11:36:24 PM
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My two cents: yes, a little, maybe, and possibly not.
28/04/2011 06:05:09 PM
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Regarding your reference to another Emond's Fielder: What are you talking about?
28/04/2011 09:06:13 PM
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both together, couldn't separate them in my mind - perrin's evasiveness or nyn's trickiness *NM*
28/04/2011 10:16:57 PM
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It isn't the worst romance in WoT
28/04/2011 08:10:23 PM
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Galad is a great option for a political marriage
28/04/2011 09:04:46 PM
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Yes, but...
28/04/2011 09:40:39 PM
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but galad knew nothing of berelain's closeness to rand, so that couldn't have affected anything
28/04/2011 10:12:23 PM
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Yes. An often overlooked point is that ELAYNE, not Egwene, gains the most power in ToM
28/04/2011 09:42:43 PM
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Except they're both really hot.
28/04/2011 10:01:46 PM
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I can only quibble; Egwene became so insufferable in ToM I'm convinced her fate will be unpleasant.
04/05/2011 12:41:53 AM
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Siuan...
04/05/2011 05:42:59 AM
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Re: Siuan screwed up big time.
07/05/2011 03:35:46 AM
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Good points all round (do you switch brains when getting into real world politics? ) & re: the Talk
12/05/2011 02:04:06 PM
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Thanks, (and no, you just become less and less astute as we move farther from fiction. )
15/05/2011 11:46:41 PM
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