Active Users:427 Time:13/11/2024 05:53:49 AM
Not really Sidious Send a noteboard - 20/09/2009 05:12:42 PM

You say the point has never been made, then you go ahead and quote Graendal's statement where she makes that very point. Graendal's statement is merely a repetition of what the BWB has already said, by the way. He has no intrinsic love of warfare, unlike Sammael. It is merely a means to an end for him. The fact that he is a good general has no bearing on this point.


That is not the same as being a reluctant general! Just because he's not obsessed with war like Sammael is, doesn't mean that he's reluctant. If Demandred calls himself a general, it means that he sees himself as such in his own mind.

No he hasn't. Throughout LoC Lews Therin is fixated on Demandred. His feelings regarding Demandred are particularly strong, including references to the fact that Demandred wanted Ilyena, and multiple other references to the man. And from the other Forsaken, we get the grudging acknowledgement that Sammael's hatred for LTT pales next to that of Demandred.


What do you mean, multiple? There are as many references to Sammael as to Demandred, which is two. Demandred thinks about Lews Therin all the time, but the reverse is not true.

I don't understand your point. NO ONE is a match for Lews Therin in a one on one battle. Nevertheless, Sammael would have beaten him if not for Moridin, Rahvin would have beaten him if not for Nynaeve and Lanfear would have beaten him if not for Moiraine. Now that he has reached his full power, no Forsaken is going to challenge him to a one on one duel on equal terms. Instead, he will be attacked from the shadows, or in a moment of weakness, or with the odds stacked against him in some other way.

Was Moiraine more powerful than Be'lal? Come now, your argument that Rand is unbeatable and therefore no Forsaken could possibly kill him is frankly ridiculous. The vagaries of war are many. Beating a superior opponent relies on choosing the terms of your attack wisely.


My point is that you consistently imply that a man who is nearly as powerful and skilled as Lews Therin must have a destiny to fight him and see if he can be the victor, which I don't agree with. I'm trying to get my point over to you that Demandred is no more special than any of the surviving Chosen during the Final Battle. Only Moridin has a certain destiny with the Dragon Reborn.

Again you twist my words, deliberately, it seems. What foreshadowing of Demandred killing Moridin did I refer to? Instead, I referred to the foreshadowing of Rand's inevitable death, coupled with the foreshadowing that Demandred's fate will culminate in a final confrontation with Rand. If Moridin happens to be laid low as a result of Rand's death, that would occur regardless of who kills Rand. Nowhere do I say that it is foreshadowed that Demandred will kill Moridin.


You referred to Rand dying, and said that it would kill Moridin because they are linked. I don't therefore agree that Rand and Moridin will die by Demandred's hands. I don't think that's twsting of anything.

Besides, Rand's death will not necessarily kill Moridin, just like Semirhage's fireball did not cause Moridin's hand to fall off, now did it?

Instead, it is more likely to severely hurt Moridin, or perhaps even drive his soul from his body or something along those lines, giving Rand the opportunity to swap bodies with him. That's if the body swapping theory turns out to be true.


The main premise of your theory is that Moridin cannot kill Rand because he will kill himself, and therefore Demandred will do it. How then, can you backtrack from that point and still maintain Demandred's importance?

A possible scenario could then be for Rand - in his new Moridin body - recovering, and killing Demandred, who is once again thwarted on the brink of ALMOST succeeding. In fact, this time he will think that he HAS finally succeeded, seeing Rand's dead body before him, only for Rand in his new body, or one of Rand's allies - perhaps Alivia - to kill Demandred a hair short of achieving his goal once again.


Or that, like many people believe, there will be the Final Battle between Mat/Perrin/Light vs Demandred/Shadow with a side battle of Moridin and Rand which has to do more with metaphysics than actual combat.

The point is, this final contest seems dramatically far more likely given the information we have thus far, than Demandred dying in some sideshow battle against Mat or Ruarc or Perrin.


That's because you consider Demandred to be a focal point to the series, which has never been implied. Even from EoTW, Ishamael has been the symbol of the Shadow. He has died and come back as the Nae'blis for the one reason of challenging Rand. If Demandred was focal, Ishamael would never have made such a grand return. Demandred will handle all the military aspects of the Shadow, but won't be directly involved with the DR, in my opinion.

And throughout the later books more than one of the Forsaken have secretly worried that the ultimate goal of the Shadow is to turn Rand instead and to make him Nae'blis above them. Once again, why would Moridin care about hurting someone close to Rand, or causing him emotional anquish if his state of mind at the end will not be a crucial issue?

There is no way for Moridin to kill Rand without hurting himself as well. Of course, he cannot reveal this to the other Forsaken, nor can he acknowledge that the ultimate goal is to turn the Dragon to the Shadow, as the first would reveal his vulnerability to his rivals, and the second would place their loyalty in doubt as they will see Rand as rival for their own positions in future.


What is your evidence that Moridin wants to convert Rand? It seems that it's a big secret, but what is your evidence? I saw that Moridin says in the Prologue that he must survive so that he can kill him at the Final Battle. What is your counterevidence?

Once again, you twist my words. Of course Demandred isn't going to achieve glory. And of course he will most likely die. But my point is that he will play a crucial role in the final confrontation with Rand. As I suggested above, he will still fall short of success at the very end, but not before having this impact on the final outcome. Just like Rahvin was killed in a confrontation with Rand, just like Be'lal, Sammael, Lanfear, Aginor, Balthamel, Ishamael and Semirhage were defeated in confronations with Rand.

Demandred will meet his fate in the same way. Why would he be the only one to fall in some sideshow battle with Mat, while the real confrontation goes on elsewhere between Moridin and Rand? Demandred will fall in a battle with Rand, either before or after the death of Rand's current body. The only difference between him and Rahvin or Sammael, is that his battle with Rand is the one at the very end, while their respective battles took place earlier in the series.


You know why he'll be the only one to die in a side-show... because of logistics, and because he won't be the only one. There are eight surviving Forsaken... do you really think that even half of them are going to get farewells like Rahvin and Sammael did? Of course not!

The Final Battle is going to have everyone against everyone. Rand can't fight all the Forsaken. I think Graendal will die in this book. The others will die in the Final Battle. Moridin and Rand will duel. The others will die in other ways. Therefore Cyndane, Aran'gar, Semirhage, Mesaana, Moghedien and Demandred must die on the field. I think Egwene will kill Cyndane in TAR, and Nynaeve will take out someone etc.

Again, I think Demandred will fall in a confronation with Rand, just like Rahvin, Be'lal, Sammael, Lanfear, Ishamael and Semirhage did. You in turn, seem to be hoping for him to fall in a more ignominious way, for some reason, far removed from the real climax. That is where we differ.


The only way in which Demandred will fall like Sammael or Rahvin will be if Rand fights him before the Final Battle, which he won't - because we need to see Demandred's general skills. The difference between you and I is that I see Demandred for what he is - you think he's almost a Dragon he's so dangerous, but I think he was much more powerful on the side of the Light and is so flawed and corrupted now that a thorn in his foot is going to take him down.
Wheel of Time board admin
Fan of Lanfear
Reply to message
TGS Prologue - your thoughts (part 2) *spoilers* - 16/09/2009 04:55:21 AM 3263 Views
Where can i find it at? Can someone give me a link? *NM* - 18/09/2009 02:21:10 AM 213 Views
mobipocket.com - 18/09/2009 02:53:13 AM 662 Views
Thanks, It was interesting especially the last part of the prologue *NM* - 20/09/2009 02:42:28 AM 264 Views
Yep, to be truthful I really didn't see that coming. *NM* - 20/09/2009 03:03:12 AM 211 Views
A pointless survey - take your guess at who wrote what of the Prologue - 18/09/2009 01:30:24 PM 563 Views
As short as the prologue was - 18/09/2009 04:27:54 PM 571 Views
Re: A pointless survey - take your guess at who wrote what of the Prologue - 18/09/2009 07:08:43 PM 437 Views
How do you think this prologue compares to the previous ones? - 18/09/2009 01:52:59 PM 528 Views
Did only the audiobook ppl get the 2:30 of Harriet at the end? - 18/09/2009 03:07:27 PM 559 Views
nope and now I hate you *NM* - 18/09/2009 04:59:48 PM 305 Views
The interview - 18/09/2009 09:40:23 PM 590 Views
The prologue gives us strong evidence that Graendal is weaker than Demi or Semi - 18/09/2009 03:55:58 PM 641 Views
Well, Lanfear... - 20/09/2009 11:33:22 PM 616 Views
Is it me or do the Forsaken seem more viscious? - 18/09/2009 04:17:22 PM 630 Views
yep, leaner and meaner...except for mesaana-she's still twitchy after shadar haran *NM* - 18/09/2009 05:09:29 PM 315 Views
You blame her? *NM* - 18/09/2009 08:05:46 PM 252 Views
Not at all, I'd be more than "twitchy" if that happened to me - 19/09/2009 12:00:57 AM 513 Views
I get the feeling they want to jump ship - 19/09/2009 02:13:51 PM 584 Views
Trollocs! - 18/09/2009 05:35:12 PM 635 Views
Why not a gray man then? - 18/09/2009 07:52:55 PM 649 Views
I'm going to guess it was Demandred - 18/09/2009 08:12:19 PM 585 Views
What Cache is in Ebou Dar? - 19/09/2009 12:05:05 AM 613 Views
Because they wanted to destroy as much of the force as possible - 19/09/2009 12:07:57 AM 521 Views
But there's no plausible deniability - 19/09/2009 12:50:42 AM 566 Views
But even several grey men or slayer aren't going to get the deed done - 19/09/2009 02:28:36 AM 590 Views
Why? - 19/09/2009 03:25:34 AM 503 Views
simple answer:scouts - 19/09/2009 04:47:04 AM 524 Views
What day is it? Are the Suldam & Damane in the area? - 19/09/2009 05:32:54 PM 474 Views
Who is Graendal going to wack? - 18/09/2009 06:00:12 PM 596 Views
I think it could be Tam. *NM* - 18/09/2009 06:05:12 PM 281 Views
Great idea. - 18/09/2009 07:12:40 PM 554 Views
No one. - 23/09/2009 02:05:06 AM 466 Views
A possibility, but... - 23/09/2009 11:53:07 AM 515 Views
Well, yeah... - 23/09/2009 04:02:47 PM 502 Views
Isn't it obvious...Semirhage sent the Trollocs - 18/09/2009 06:38:15 PM 643 Views
Fades are smart enough though - 18/09/2009 07:54:02 PM 487 Views
Mesaana's statement gives us a big clue about Demandred's and Moridin's whereabouts - 18/09/2009 09:11:49 PM 690 Views
Or - 18/09/2009 10:38:52 PM 667 Views
My first thought was - 19/09/2009 02:20:39 AM 538 Views
My favorite quote: "Who will win? The child or the fool?" - Graendal - 18/09/2009 09:48:55 PM 650 Views
*NM* - 19/09/2009 04:20:29 AM 356 Views
but she didn't say 'the fool or the fool' - 19/09/2009 02:07:20 PM 554 Views
Yes, because Cannoli has long valued the opinions of the Forsaken... - 20/09/2009 06:10:58 AM 614 Views
Lol *NM* - 20/09/2009 08:26:53 AM 484 Views
Forsaken Chapter - 18/09/2009 10:30:10 PM 614 Views
I agree that Graendal will die in this book.... her and A'rangar *NM* - 19/09/2009 08:14:07 AM 258 Views
Re: Forsaken Chapter - 19/09/2009 09:53:31 AM 642 Views
Wrong... - 19/09/2009 01:41:25 PM 671 Views
I think we'll have to agree to disagree. - 19/09/2009 09:22:38 PM 689 Views
Huh - 19/09/2009 01:46:21 PM 750 Views
Re: Huh - 19/09/2009 02:21:43 PM 653 Views
Re: Huh - 19/09/2009 04:32:50 PM 672 Views
Fair enough... - 19/09/2009 05:08:33 PM 595 Views
Re: Forsaken Chapter - 19/09/2009 05:40:14 PM 524 Views
No, see my response to Agent Orange above. *NM* - 19/09/2009 06:07:14 PM 230 Views
Remove your blinders man... - 19/09/2009 07:16:03 PM 663 Views
After third reread - 18/09/2009 10:58:12 PM 589 Views
Ituralde's plan - 19/09/2009 02:04:58 PM 504 Views
Huh....hadn't thought about that - 19/09/2009 03:07:06 PM 611 Views
This makes perfect sense - 22/09/2009 07:35:49 PM 513 Views
Various comments - 19/09/2009 05:38:21 PM 635 Views
The Dying Man - 19/09/2009 06:48:09 PM 577 Views
Yeah, I thought it was Dobraine as well - 19/09/2009 08:30:13 PM 592 Views
Dobraine seems unlikely... - 20/09/2009 11:30:45 AM 482 Views
Symbolism - 20/09/2009 04:10:53 PM 460 Views
After a reread I think I know who sent the Trollocs - 19/09/2009 08:28:08 PM 542 Views
That is a really stupid idea - 20/09/2009 01:20:09 AM 506 Views
Yeah - 20/09/2009 08:24:18 AM 502 Views
Another reason why Moridin is not Taim - 19/09/2009 08:41:03 PM 525 Views
This isn't evidence. - 19/09/2009 08:51:54 PM 638 Views
It isn't evidence, but it is another perspective to add to the table - 19/09/2009 09:11:15 PM 435 Views
Personally, I disagree. - 20/09/2009 03:22:24 AM 535 Views
Do you think Moridin is struggling like Rand is? - 19/09/2009 10:24:45 PM 449 Views
Re: Do you think Moridin is struggling like Rand is? - 19/09/2009 11:29:36 PM 524 Views
Why is Moridin and not Demandred marshalling the Dark Forces in the Blight? - 19/09/2009 10:35:06 PM 522 Views
I think there are many issues here - 19/09/2009 10:51:13 PM 630 Views
The Malign Influence of the Forsaken - 19/09/2009 11:08:00 PM 542 Views
I have doubts about that degree of conversion - 19/09/2009 11:17:44 PM 479 Views
Its a stretch, but... - 19/09/2009 11:34:28 PM 433 Views
I thought about that - 20/09/2009 08:26:02 AM 476 Views
Levee en Masse - 19/09/2009 10:51:54 PM 547 Views
I think Demendred might take over though - 20/09/2009 05:10:08 PM 434 Views
Did Demandred make the connection between Moridin's phantom hand-pain and Semirhage's firebolt? - 20/09/2009 12:11:32 PM 628 Views
I don't think that Demandred will be a key player at the end with Rand - 20/09/2009 01:00:58 PM 585 Views
Some sweeping statements there... - 20/09/2009 01:21:46 PM 576 Views
Not at all - 20/09/2009 03:34:59 PM 599 Views
A lot of twisting my words there, and direct contradictions of your own points... - 20/09/2009 04:19:57 PM 603 Views
Not really - 20/09/2009 05:12:42 PM 671 Views
I couldn't have summarized it better myself... - 20/09/2009 05:25:56 PM 494 Views
But... - 20/09/2009 06:01:33 PM 594 Views
Possible... - 20/09/2009 06:08:21 PM 507 Views
So that's your argument now? - 20/09/2009 07:35:52 PM 426 Views
I think you took that the wrong way... - 20/09/2009 08:53:28 PM 513 Views
Its simply, really. - 20/09/2009 09:05:42 PM 524 Views
Hmmm... - 20/09/2009 11:10:04 PM 553 Views
Fair enough... - 20/09/2009 11:12:53 PM 423 Views
Sure. *NM* - 20/09/2009 11:25:50 PM 253 Views
Wow, then I think you're in for a surprise - 20/09/2009 08:38:37 PM 489 Views
Well - 20/09/2009 08:56:43 PM 565 Views
Re: Well - 20/09/2009 09:40:51 PM 646 Views
Re: Wow, then I think you're in for a surprise - 20/09/2009 09:07:48 PM 480 Views
Just a general comment... - 20/09/2009 09:13:51 PM 643 Views
Re: Just a general comment... - 20/09/2009 09:59:51 PM 1454 Views
Re: Just a general comment... - 20/09/2009 10:19:14 PM 456 Views
Re: Just a general comment... - 21/09/2009 04:58:38 AM 411 Views
I reject the cult of the "cool" villain. - 20/09/2009 11:24:40 PM 530 Views
I don't really agree - 21/09/2009 05:02:10 AM 479 Views
But these aren't criminals... - 21/09/2009 05:47:40 AM 410 Views
No, just the most heinous criminals imaginable - 21/09/2009 12:43:19 PM 618 Views
Re: No, just the most heinous criminals imaginable - 22/09/2009 10:49:58 PM 541 Views
Doubt it... - 20/09/2009 02:10:37 PM 592 Views
I tend to agree with you, this time. - 20/09/2009 05:05:35 PM 481 Views

Reply to Message