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A lot of twisting my words there, and direct contradictions of your own points... Shannow Send a noteboard - 20/09/2009 04:19:57 PM
That point has never been made. Demandred describes himself as a general at the Cleansing! Graendal merely remarks that he seems get no joy from battle despite being a great general. It's no shock - everything he does is to either thwart Lews Therin or prove that he is better, and considering he has never achieved that even once, he's remained unfulfilled. That is why Graendal thinks he holds on to foolish grudges - he's reaching for the sun.


You say the point has never been made, then you go ahead and quote Graendal's statement where she makes that very point. Graendal's statement is merely a repetition of what the BWB has already said, by the way. He has no intrinsic love of warfare, unlike Sammael. It is merely a means to an end for him. The fact that he is a good general has no bearing on this point.

It hasn't been built up by Lews Therin. If you are referring to Lews Therin's offhand remark that he would like to kill Demandred AND Sammael, then that would be the limit of the 'climactic build up'. Demandred has never been one of Lews Therin's priorities - he's mentioned Demandred as often as he's mentioned killing Sammael, or making Semirhage suffer, or referring to the justice in Lanfear dying.


No he hasn't. Throughout LoC Lews Therin is fixated on Demandred. His feelings regarding Demandred are particularly strong, including references to the fact that Demandred wanted Ilyena, and multiple other references to the man. And from the other Forsaken, we get the grudging acknowledgement that Sammael's hatred for LTT pales next to that of Demandred.

Besides, Demandred is not a match for Rand, which is a fact you continuously ignore. Demandred was always second to Lews Therin. Why would the author torture us with the most predictible fight in the series? Demandred isn't going to offer a better fight than Sammael or Rahvin did. I don't see how you can think the series will end in that way when his own ally thinks that Demandred will never face Rand without a sa'angreal. To suggest further that Demandred will actually beat Rand and kill him goes even one step further.


I don't understand your point. NO ONE is a match for Lews Therin in a one on one battle. Nevertheless, Sammael would have beaten him if not for Moridin, Rahvin would have beaten him if not for Nynaeve and Lanfear would have beaten him if not for Moiraine. Now that he has reached his full power, no Forsaken is going to challenge him to a one on one duel on equal terms. Instead, he will be attacked from the shadows, or in a moment of weakness, or with the odds stacked against him in some other way.

Was Moiraine more powerful than Be'lal? Come now, your argument that Rand is unbeatable and therefore no Forsaken could possibly kill him is frankly ridiculous. The vagaries of war are many. Beating a superior opponent relies on choosing the terms of your attack wisely.

Well that's a theory you're entitled to grasp to, but I can't see Demandred killing Moridin when he couldn't manage it in the War of Power, and Rand has done it several times. Graendal also wants to make Moridin into a slave, and Aran'gar wants to kill Moridin - it doesn't mean that any of this is true foreshadowing.


Again you twist my words, deliberately, it seems. What foreshadowing of Demandred killing Moridin did I refer to? Instead, I referred to the foreshadowing of Rand's inevitable death, coupled with the foreshadowing that Demandred's fate will culminate in a final confrontation with Rand. If Moridin happens to be laid low as a result of Rand's death, that would occur regardless of who kills Rand. Nowhere do I say that it is foreshadowed that Demandred will kill Moridin.

Besides, Rand's death will not necessarily kill Moridin, just like Semirhage's fireball did not cause Moridin's hand to fall off, now did it?

Instead, it is more likely to severely hurt Moridin, or perhaps even drive his soul from his body or something along those lines, giving Rand the opportunity to swap bodies with him. That's if the body swapping theory turns out to be true.

A possible scenario could then be for Rand - in his new Moridin body - recovering, and killing Demandred, who is once again thwarted on the brink of ALMOST succeeding. In fact, this time he will think that he HAS finally succeeded, seeing Rand's dead body before him, only for Rand in his new body, or one of Rand's allies - perhaps Alivia - to kill Demandred a hair short of achieving his goal once again.

The point is, this final contest seems dramatically far more likely given the information we have thus far, than Demandred dying in some sideshow battle against Mat or Ruarc or Perrin.

There are many Forsaken who want a piece of Rand - Cyndane most of all, but they might all be cut short.

Moridin directly said he wanted to fight Rand in the Final Battle, and there's no evidence that he'll renege on this deal. He made it clear as early as TDR that conversion was no longer part of the Shadow's plot with al'Thor.


And throughout the later books more than one of the Forsaken have secretly worried that the ultimate goal of the Shadow is to turn Rand instead and to make him Nae'blis above them. Once again, why would Moridin care about hurting someone close to Rand, or causing him emotional anquish if his state of mind at the end will not be a crucial issue?

There is no way for Moridin to kill Rand without hurting himself as well. Of course, he cannot reveal this to the other Forsaken, nor can he acknowledge that the ultimate goal is to turn the Dragon to the Shadow, as the first would reveal his vulnerability to his rivals, and the second would place their loyalty in doubt as they will see Rand as rival for their own positions in future.


Treacherous balefiring which could claim Demandred as much as anyone, and which could Demandred is unwilling to use. It strongly hints at the theme that pride comes before the fall, and that Demandred will be taken out by someone rather average - much like Lanfear was pushed through the door by Moiraine, or how she balefired Be'lal, or how Nynaeve burned Rahvin. There is no evidence that Demandred will get any greater death than these mentioned above. The whole point of Demandred is for us to see that he should have stayed on the Light and remained Lews Therin's friend and ally. The author isn't going to grant glory to a traitor and potential Dragon who sold his soul - he's going to have him lose everything. It's happened to most of the Forsaken, it will happen to Demandred.


Once again, you twist my words. Of course Demandred isn't going to achieve glory. And of course he will most likely die. But my point is that he will play a crucial role in the final confrontation with Rand. As I suggested above, he will still fall short of success at the very end, but not before having this impact on the final outcome. Just like Rahvin was killed in a confrontation with Rand, just like Be'lal, Sammael, Lanfear, Aginor, Balthamel, Ishamael and Semirhage were defeated in confronations with Rand.

Demandred will meet his fate in the same way. Why would he be the only one to fall in some sideshow battle with Mat, while the real confrontation goes on elsewhere between Moridin and Rand? Demandred will fall in a battle with Rand, either before or after the death of Rand's current body. The only difference between him and Rahvin or Sammael, is that his battle with Rand is the one at the very end, while their respective battles took place earlier in the series.

The whole secret behind Demandred is his hidden land, and for us to see his army and his strategic skills. RJ already popped the balloon surrounding his channeling prowess at the Cleansing when he himself said he wasn't made for this lowly work, and when Flinn and friends chased him away. Demandred has little value as an individual - but great value as a strategist, which is why he's obviously been left for the Final Battle. That's why I think Mat will compete against him - he's got a thousand generals knowledge in his brain, and it'll be good to see if he can match Demandred.


Again, I think Demandred will fall in a confronation with Rand, just like Rahvin, Be'lal, Sammael, Lanfear, Ishamael and Semirhage did. You in turn, seem to be hoping for him to fall in a more ignominious way, for some reason, far removed from the real climax. That is where we differ.
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TGS Prologue - your thoughts (part 2) *spoilers* - 16/09/2009 04:55:21 AM 3263 Views
Where can i find it at? Can someone give me a link? *NM* - 18/09/2009 02:21:10 AM 214 Views
mobipocket.com - 18/09/2009 02:53:13 AM 662 Views
Thanks, It was interesting especially the last part of the prologue *NM* - 20/09/2009 02:42:28 AM 265 Views
Yep, to be truthful I really didn't see that coming. *NM* - 20/09/2009 03:03:12 AM 211 Views
A pointless survey - take your guess at who wrote what of the Prologue - 18/09/2009 01:30:24 PM 564 Views
As short as the prologue was - 18/09/2009 04:27:54 PM 572 Views
Re: A pointless survey - take your guess at who wrote what of the Prologue - 18/09/2009 07:08:43 PM 438 Views
How do you think this prologue compares to the previous ones? - 18/09/2009 01:52:59 PM 528 Views
Did only the audiobook ppl get the 2:30 of Harriet at the end? - 18/09/2009 03:07:27 PM 559 Views
nope and now I hate you *NM* - 18/09/2009 04:59:48 PM 306 Views
The interview - 18/09/2009 09:40:23 PM 590 Views
The prologue gives us strong evidence that Graendal is weaker than Demi or Semi - 18/09/2009 03:55:58 PM 642 Views
Well, Lanfear... - 20/09/2009 11:33:22 PM 617 Views
Is it me or do the Forsaken seem more viscious? - 18/09/2009 04:17:22 PM 631 Views
yep, leaner and meaner...except for mesaana-she's still twitchy after shadar haran *NM* - 18/09/2009 05:09:29 PM 315 Views
You blame her? *NM* - 18/09/2009 08:05:46 PM 252 Views
Not at all, I'd be more than "twitchy" if that happened to me - 19/09/2009 12:00:57 AM 514 Views
I get the feeling they want to jump ship - 19/09/2009 02:13:51 PM 585 Views
Trollocs! - 18/09/2009 05:35:12 PM 635 Views
Why not a gray man then? - 18/09/2009 07:52:55 PM 649 Views
I'm going to guess it was Demandred - 18/09/2009 08:12:19 PM 586 Views
What Cache is in Ebou Dar? - 19/09/2009 12:05:05 AM 614 Views
Because they wanted to destroy as much of the force as possible - 19/09/2009 12:07:57 AM 521 Views
But there's no plausible deniability - 19/09/2009 12:50:42 AM 567 Views
But even several grey men or slayer aren't going to get the deed done - 19/09/2009 02:28:36 AM 591 Views
Why? - 19/09/2009 03:25:34 AM 503 Views
simple answer:scouts - 19/09/2009 04:47:04 AM 525 Views
What day is it? Are the Suldam & Damane in the area? - 19/09/2009 05:32:54 PM 474 Views
Who is Graendal going to wack? - 18/09/2009 06:00:12 PM 596 Views
I think it could be Tam. *NM* - 18/09/2009 06:05:12 PM 281 Views
Great idea. - 18/09/2009 07:12:40 PM 555 Views
No one. - 23/09/2009 02:05:06 AM 466 Views
A possibility, but... - 23/09/2009 11:53:07 AM 516 Views
Well, yeah... - 23/09/2009 04:02:47 PM 503 Views
Isn't it obvious...Semirhage sent the Trollocs - 18/09/2009 06:38:15 PM 643 Views
Fades are smart enough though - 18/09/2009 07:54:02 PM 488 Views
Mesaana's statement gives us a big clue about Demandred's and Moridin's whereabouts - 18/09/2009 09:11:49 PM 690 Views
Or - 18/09/2009 10:38:52 PM 667 Views
My first thought was - 19/09/2009 02:20:39 AM 539 Views
My favorite quote: "Who will win? The child or the fool?" - Graendal - 18/09/2009 09:48:55 PM 651 Views
*NM* - 19/09/2009 04:20:29 AM 357 Views
but she didn't say 'the fool or the fool' - 19/09/2009 02:07:20 PM 555 Views
Yes, because Cannoli has long valued the opinions of the Forsaken... - 20/09/2009 06:10:58 AM 614 Views
Lol *NM* - 20/09/2009 08:26:53 AM 485 Views
Forsaken Chapter - 18/09/2009 10:30:10 PM 615 Views
I agree that Graendal will die in this book.... her and A'rangar *NM* - 19/09/2009 08:14:07 AM 259 Views
Re: Forsaken Chapter - 19/09/2009 09:53:31 AM 643 Views
Wrong... - 19/09/2009 01:41:25 PM 671 Views
I think we'll have to agree to disagree. - 19/09/2009 09:22:38 PM 690 Views
Huh - 19/09/2009 01:46:21 PM 750 Views
Re: Huh - 19/09/2009 02:21:43 PM 654 Views
Re: Huh - 19/09/2009 04:32:50 PM 672 Views
Fair enough... - 19/09/2009 05:08:33 PM 595 Views
Re: Forsaken Chapter - 19/09/2009 05:40:14 PM 524 Views
No, see my response to Agent Orange above. *NM* - 19/09/2009 06:07:14 PM 230 Views
Remove your blinders man... - 19/09/2009 07:16:03 PM 663 Views
After third reread - 18/09/2009 10:58:12 PM 590 Views
Ituralde's plan - 19/09/2009 02:04:58 PM 505 Views
Huh....hadn't thought about that - 19/09/2009 03:07:06 PM 612 Views
This makes perfect sense - 22/09/2009 07:35:49 PM 513 Views
Various comments - 19/09/2009 05:38:21 PM 635 Views
The Dying Man - 19/09/2009 06:48:09 PM 577 Views
Yeah, I thought it was Dobraine as well - 19/09/2009 08:30:13 PM 592 Views
Dobraine seems unlikely... - 20/09/2009 11:30:45 AM 482 Views
Symbolism - 20/09/2009 04:10:53 PM 461 Views
After a reread I think I know who sent the Trollocs - 19/09/2009 08:28:08 PM 542 Views
That is a really stupid idea - 20/09/2009 01:20:09 AM 506 Views
Yeah - 20/09/2009 08:24:18 AM 502 Views
Another reason why Moridin is not Taim - 19/09/2009 08:41:03 PM 525 Views
This isn't evidence. - 19/09/2009 08:51:54 PM 638 Views
It isn't evidence, but it is another perspective to add to the table - 19/09/2009 09:11:15 PM 435 Views
Personally, I disagree. - 20/09/2009 03:22:24 AM 536 Views
Do you think Moridin is struggling like Rand is? - 19/09/2009 10:24:45 PM 450 Views
Re: Do you think Moridin is struggling like Rand is? - 19/09/2009 11:29:36 PM 525 Views
Why is Moridin and not Demandred marshalling the Dark Forces in the Blight? - 19/09/2009 10:35:06 PM 523 Views
I think there are many issues here - 19/09/2009 10:51:13 PM 631 Views
The Malign Influence of the Forsaken - 19/09/2009 11:08:00 PM 542 Views
I have doubts about that degree of conversion - 19/09/2009 11:17:44 PM 480 Views
Its a stretch, but... - 19/09/2009 11:34:28 PM 433 Views
I thought about that - 20/09/2009 08:26:02 AM 476 Views
Levee en Masse - 19/09/2009 10:51:54 PM 547 Views
I think Demendred might take over though - 20/09/2009 05:10:08 PM 434 Views
Did Demandred make the connection between Moridin's phantom hand-pain and Semirhage's firebolt? - 20/09/2009 12:11:32 PM 628 Views
I don't think that Demandred will be a key player at the end with Rand - 20/09/2009 01:00:58 PM 586 Views
Some sweeping statements there... - 20/09/2009 01:21:46 PM 577 Views
Not at all - 20/09/2009 03:34:59 PM 600 Views
A lot of twisting my words there, and direct contradictions of your own points... - 20/09/2009 04:19:57 PM 604 Views
Not really - 20/09/2009 05:12:42 PM 671 Views
I couldn't have summarized it better myself... - 20/09/2009 05:25:56 PM 495 Views
But... - 20/09/2009 06:01:33 PM 594 Views
Possible... - 20/09/2009 06:08:21 PM 508 Views
So that's your argument now? - 20/09/2009 07:35:52 PM 426 Views
I think you took that the wrong way... - 20/09/2009 08:53:28 PM 513 Views
Its simply, really. - 20/09/2009 09:05:42 PM 524 Views
Hmmm... - 20/09/2009 11:10:04 PM 553 Views
Fair enough... - 20/09/2009 11:12:53 PM 424 Views
Sure. *NM* - 20/09/2009 11:25:50 PM 254 Views
Wow, then I think you're in for a surprise - 20/09/2009 08:38:37 PM 490 Views
Well - 20/09/2009 08:56:43 PM 566 Views
Re: Well - 20/09/2009 09:40:51 PM 647 Views
Re: Wow, then I think you're in for a surprise - 20/09/2009 09:07:48 PM 481 Views
Just a general comment... - 20/09/2009 09:13:51 PM 644 Views
Re: Just a general comment... - 20/09/2009 09:59:51 PM 1455 Views
Re: Just a general comment... - 20/09/2009 10:19:14 PM 456 Views
Re: Just a general comment... - 21/09/2009 04:58:38 AM 412 Views
I reject the cult of the "cool" villain. - 20/09/2009 11:24:40 PM 531 Views
I don't really agree - 21/09/2009 05:02:10 AM 480 Views
But these aren't criminals... - 21/09/2009 05:47:40 AM 411 Views
No, just the most heinous criminals imaginable - 21/09/2009 12:43:19 PM 619 Views
Re: No, just the most heinous criminals imaginable - 22/09/2009 10:49:58 PM 542 Views
Doubt it... - 20/09/2009 02:10:37 PM 592 Views
I tend to agree with you, this time. - 20/09/2009 05:05:35 PM 481 Views

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