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Not at all Sidious Send a noteboard - 20/09/2009 03:34:59 PM
One could argue that the point has repeatedly been made that Demandred takes no joy from military strategy, that he is in fact a reluctant general, and that military strategy is merely a necessary sideshow for him in his primary quest of destroying Lews Therin. This has been made very clear. It was made yet again in the Prologue to TGS.


That point has never been made. Demandred describes himself as a general at the Cleansing! Graendal merely remarks that he seems get no joy from battle despite being a great general. It's no shock - everything he does is to either thwart Lews Therin or prove that he is better, and considering he has never achieved that even once, he's remained unfulfilled. That is why Graendal thinks he holds on to foolish grudges - he's reaching for the sun.

The confrontation between Lews Therin and Demandred has been built up from both sides (by both Demandred and Lews Therin himself), throughout the series. You don't think that it would be quite an anti-climax if nothing comes of it? Certainly, RJ could have gotten a lot more mileage out of Demandred's character than he has up to now. The only reason for keeping him in the background would be for the brief bits of foreshadowing to culminate in this epic confrontation at the end.


It hasn't been built up by Lews Therin. If you are referring to Lews Therin's offhand remark that he would like to kill Demandred AND Sammael, then that would be the limit of the 'climactic build up'. Demandred has never been one of Lews Therin's priorities - he's mentioned Demandred as often as he's mentioned killing Sammael, or making Semirhage suffer, or referring to the justice in Lanfear dying.

Besides, Demandred is not a match for Rand, which is a fact you continuously ignore. Demandred was always second to Lews Therin. Why would the author torture us with the most predictible fight in the series? Demandred isn't going to offer a better fight than Sammael or Rahvin did. I don't see how you can think the series will end in that way when his own ally thinks that Demandred will never face Rand without a sa'angreal. To suggest further that Demandred will actually beat Rand and kill him goes even one step further.

One could equally argue that the theme of the Shadow being brought low by its very nature - by the infighting and betrayal within its own ranks - would be equally well demonstrated by Demandred thwarting Moridin on the cusp of victory by killing Rand instead of letting him be turned.


Well that's a theory you're entitled to grasp to, but I can't see Demandred killing Moridin when he couldn't manage it in the War of Power, and Rand has done it several times. Graendal also wants to make Moridin into a slave, and Aran'gar wants to kill Moridin - it doesn't mean that any of this is true foreshadowing.

It is pretty clear now that Moridin's only hope is for Rand to be turned to the Shadow rather than being killed. His decision to bring Graendal into his fold is driven precisely by this need. He needs her to use her specialist skills to start preparing him psychologically for covnersion to the Shadow. Rand being killed would be the exact opposite of what he needs to happen - and yet that is exactly what is going to happen. Rand WILL die -at least this incarnation of him will. That much has been heavily foreshadowed. Whether his soul lives on in another body is yet to be revealed. But he will die, somehow. And the above is a likely way for it to happen, in my view.


There are many Forsaken who want a piece of Rand - Cyndane most of all, but they might all be cut short.

Moridin directly said he wanted to fight Rand in the Final Battle, and there's no evidence that he'll renege on this deal. He made it clear as early as TDR that conversion was no longer part of the Shadow's plot with al'Thor.

Moridin isn't going to fight him. Because killing him will kill Moridin as well. I agree that no one is going to beat Rand in a face to face confrontation. But the end won't be a face to face, one on one battle to the death. It will be a complex, multi-faceted engagement, with plenty of opportunity for treacherous balefiring from the sides, and no doubt with more than one unexpected twist thrown in for good measure.


Treacherous balefiring which could claim Demandred as much as anyone, and which could Demandred is unwilling to use. It strongly hints at the theme that pride comes before the fall, and that Demandred will be taken out by someone rather average - much like Lanfear was pushed through the door by Moiraine, or how she balefired Be'lal, or how Nynaeve burned Rahvin. There is no evidence that Demandred will get any greater death than these mentioned above. The whole point of Demandred is for us to see that he should have stayed on the Light and remained Lews Therin's friend and ally. The author isn't going to grant glory to a traitor and potential Dragon who sold his soul - he's going to have him lose everything. It's happened to most of the Forsaken, it will happen to Demandred.

The whole secret behind Demandred is his hidden land, and for us to see his army and his strategic skills. RJ already popped the balloon surrounding his channeling prowess at the Cleansing when he himself said he wasn't made for this lowly work, and when Flinn and friends chased him away. Demandred has little value as an individual - but great value as a strategist, which is why he's obviously been left for the Final Battle. That's why I think Mat will compete against him - he's got a thousand generals knowledge in his brain, and it'll be good to see if he can match Demandred.
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This message last edited by Sidious on 20/09/2009 at 03:36:53 PM
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TGS Prologue - your thoughts (part 2) *spoilers* - 16/09/2009 04:55:21 AM 3340 Views
Where can i find it at? Can someone give me a link? *NM* - 18/09/2009 02:21:10 AM 229 Views
mobipocket.com - 18/09/2009 02:53:13 AM 739 Views
Thanks, It was interesting especially the last part of the prologue *NM* - 20/09/2009 02:42:28 AM 292 Views
Yep, to be truthful I really didn't see that coming. *NM* - 20/09/2009 03:03:12 AM 234 Views
A pointless survey - take your guess at who wrote what of the Prologue - 18/09/2009 01:30:24 PM 633 Views
As short as the prologue was - 18/09/2009 04:27:54 PM 642 Views
Re: A pointless survey - take your guess at who wrote what of the Prologue - 18/09/2009 07:08:43 PM 515 Views
How do you think this prologue compares to the previous ones? - 18/09/2009 01:52:59 PM 600 Views
Did only the audiobook ppl get the 2:30 of Harriet at the end? - 18/09/2009 03:07:27 PM 637 Views
nope and now I hate you *NM* - 18/09/2009 04:59:48 PM 338 Views
The interview - 18/09/2009 09:40:23 PM 660 Views
The prologue gives us strong evidence that Graendal is weaker than Demi or Semi - 18/09/2009 03:55:58 PM 716 Views
Well, Lanfear... - 20/09/2009 11:33:22 PM 684 Views
Is it me or do the Forsaken seem more viscious? - 18/09/2009 04:17:22 PM 707 Views
yep, leaner and meaner...except for mesaana-she's still twitchy after shadar haran *NM* - 18/09/2009 05:09:29 PM 330 Views
You blame her? *NM* - 18/09/2009 08:05:46 PM 278 Views
Not at all, I'd be more than "twitchy" if that happened to me - 19/09/2009 12:00:57 AM 590 Views
I get the feeling they want to jump ship - 19/09/2009 02:13:51 PM 655 Views
Trollocs! - 18/09/2009 05:35:12 PM 708 Views
Why not a gray man then? - 18/09/2009 07:52:55 PM 716 Views
I'm going to guess it was Demandred - 18/09/2009 08:12:19 PM 658 Views
What Cache is in Ebou Dar? - 19/09/2009 12:05:05 AM 685 Views
Because they wanted to destroy as much of the force as possible - 19/09/2009 12:07:57 AM 586 Views
But there's no plausible deniability - 19/09/2009 12:50:42 AM 633 Views
But even several grey men or slayer aren't going to get the deed done - 19/09/2009 02:28:36 AM 660 Views
Why? - 19/09/2009 03:25:34 AM 583 Views
simple answer:scouts - 19/09/2009 04:47:04 AM 595 Views
What day is it? Are the Suldam & Damane in the area? - 19/09/2009 05:32:54 PM 548 Views
Who is Graendal going to wack? - 18/09/2009 06:00:12 PM 667 Views
I think it could be Tam. *NM* - 18/09/2009 06:05:12 PM 308 Views
Great idea. - 18/09/2009 07:12:40 PM 622 Views
No one. - 23/09/2009 02:05:06 AM 545 Views
A possibility, but... - 23/09/2009 11:53:07 AM 578 Views
Well, yeah... - 23/09/2009 04:02:47 PM 574 Views
Isn't it obvious...Semirhage sent the Trollocs - 18/09/2009 06:38:15 PM 725 Views
Fades are smart enough though - 18/09/2009 07:54:02 PM 567 Views
Mesaana's statement gives us a big clue about Demandred's and Moridin's whereabouts - 18/09/2009 09:11:49 PM 766 Views
Or - 18/09/2009 10:38:52 PM 739 Views
My first thought was - 19/09/2009 02:20:39 AM 605 Views
My favorite quote: "Who will win? The child or the fool?" - Graendal - 18/09/2009 09:48:55 PM 720 Views
*NM* - 19/09/2009 04:20:29 AM 376 Views
but she didn't say 'the fool or the fool' - 19/09/2009 02:07:20 PM 620 Views
Yes, because Cannoli has long valued the opinions of the Forsaken... - 20/09/2009 06:10:58 AM 691 Views
Lol *NM* - 20/09/2009 08:26:53 AM 561 Views
Forsaken Chapter - 18/09/2009 10:30:10 PM 679 Views
I agree that Graendal will die in this book.... her and A'rangar *NM* - 19/09/2009 08:14:07 AM 279 Views
Re: Forsaken Chapter - 19/09/2009 09:53:31 AM 717 Views
Wrong... - 19/09/2009 01:41:25 PM 739 Views
I think we'll have to agree to disagree. - 19/09/2009 09:22:38 PM 771 Views
Huh - 19/09/2009 01:46:21 PM 817 Views
Re: Huh - 19/09/2009 02:21:43 PM 724 Views
Re: Huh - 19/09/2009 04:32:50 PM 748 Views
Fair enough... - 19/09/2009 05:08:33 PM 660 Views
Re: Forsaken Chapter - 19/09/2009 05:40:14 PM 602 Views
No, see my response to Agent Orange above. *NM* - 19/09/2009 06:07:14 PM 254 Views
Remove your blinders man... - 19/09/2009 07:16:03 PM 729 Views
After third reread - 18/09/2009 10:58:12 PM 668 Views
Ituralde's plan - 19/09/2009 02:04:58 PM 584 Views
Huh....hadn't thought about that - 19/09/2009 03:07:06 PM 676 Views
This makes perfect sense - 22/09/2009 07:35:49 PM 585 Views
Various comments - 19/09/2009 05:38:21 PM 676 Views
The Dying Man - 19/09/2009 06:48:09 PM 651 Views
Yeah, I thought it was Dobraine as well - 19/09/2009 08:30:13 PM 660 Views
Dobraine seems unlikely... - 20/09/2009 11:30:45 AM 552 Views
Symbolism - 20/09/2009 04:10:53 PM 530 Views
After a reread I think I know who sent the Trollocs - 19/09/2009 08:28:08 PM 609 Views
That is a really stupid idea - 20/09/2009 01:20:09 AM 585 Views
Yeah - 20/09/2009 08:24:18 AM 571 Views
Another reason why Moridin is not Taim - 19/09/2009 08:41:03 PM 597 Views
This isn't evidence. - 19/09/2009 08:51:54 PM 709 Views
It isn't evidence, but it is another perspective to add to the table - 19/09/2009 09:11:15 PM 511 Views
Personally, I disagree. - 20/09/2009 03:22:24 AM 608 Views
Do you think Moridin is struggling like Rand is? - 19/09/2009 10:24:45 PM 515 Views
Re: Do you think Moridin is struggling like Rand is? - 19/09/2009 11:29:36 PM 591 Views
Why is Moridin and not Demandred marshalling the Dark Forces in the Blight? - 19/09/2009 10:35:06 PM 595 Views
I think there are many issues here - 19/09/2009 10:51:13 PM 698 Views
The Malign Influence of the Forsaken - 19/09/2009 11:08:00 PM 612 Views
I have doubts about that degree of conversion - 19/09/2009 11:17:44 PM 556 Views
Its a stretch, but... - 19/09/2009 11:34:28 PM 508 Views
I thought about that - 20/09/2009 08:26:02 AM 545 Views
Levee en Masse - 19/09/2009 10:51:54 PM 614 Views
I think Demendred might take over though - 20/09/2009 05:10:08 PM 498 Views
Did Demandred make the connection between Moridin's phantom hand-pain and Semirhage's firebolt? - 20/09/2009 12:11:32 PM 696 Views
I don't think that Demandred will be a key player at the end with Rand - 20/09/2009 01:00:58 PM 653 Views
Some sweeping statements there... - 20/09/2009 01:21:46 PM 643 Views
Not at all - 20/09/2009 03:34:59 PM 681 Views
A lot of twisting my words there, and direct contradictions of your own points... - 20/09/2009 04:19:57 PM 694 Views
Not really - 20/09/2009 05:12:42 PM 745 Views
I couldn't have summarized it better myself... - 20/09/2009 05:25:56 PM 564 Views
But... - 20/09/2009 06:01:33 PM 667 Views
Possible... - 20/09/2009 06:08:21 PM 580 Views
So that's your argument now? - 20/09/2009 07:35:52 PM 495 Views
I think you took that the wrong way... - 20/09/2009 08:53:28 PM 590 Views
Its simply, really. - 20/09/2009 09:05:42 PM 570 Views
Hmmm... - 20/09/2009 11:10:04 PM 618 Views
Fair enough... - 20/09/2009 11:12:53 PM 495 Views
Sure. *NM* - 20/09/2009 11:25:50 PM 280 Views
Wow, then I think you're in for a surprise - 20/09/2009 08:38:37 PM 559 Views
Well - 20/09/2009 08:56:43 PM 635 Views
Re: Well - 20/09/2009 09:40:51 PM 721 Views
Re: Wow, then I think you're in for a surprise - 20/09/2009 09:07:48 PM 552 Views
Just a general comment... - 20/09/2009 09:13:51 PM 714 Views
Re: Just a general comment... - 20/09/2009 09:59:51 PM 1532 Views
Re: Just a general comment... - 20/09/2009 10:19:14 PM 535 Views
Re: Just a general comment... - 21/09/2009 04:58:38 AM 490 Views
I reject the cult of the "cool" villain. - 20/09/2009 11:24:40 PM 605 Views
I don't really agree - 21/09/2009 05:02:10 AM 560 Views
But these aren't criminals... - 21/09/2009 05:47:40 AM 482 Views
No, just the most heinous criminals imaginable - 21/09/2009 12:43:19 PM 694 Views
Re: No, just the most heinous criminals imaginable - 22/09/2009 10:49:58 PM 607 Views
Doubt it... - 20/09/2009 02:10:37 PM 672 Views
I tend to agree with you, this time. - 20/09/2009 05:05:35 PM 542 Views

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