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Re: Huh Sidious Send a noteboard - 19/09/2009 04:32:50 PM
Really? Like playing sexual games with Compelled pretty boys? Rather than accurately estimating the strengths and weakenesses of her key competitors? That proves my point that she is not the most formidable of opponents.


No, like subverting Arad Doman. Demandred didn't even think about the skills of the other Forsaken when we had his PoV. It doesn't mean that he doesn't have a rough idea. Graendal is merely toying with the idea - it's a stream of thought as to whether Demandred or Semirhage is more dangerous. What is more dangerous... cyanide or dynamite? Graendal isn't a fool because she doesn't sit around all day thinking about that sort of concept. Asmodean could tell Rand very little about the other Forsaken, a fact that irritated Rand a lot.

I guess the opposite is then true. Aginor is intimidated by Demandred but feels quite comofortable addressing Graendal in a patronizing way. Arangar thinks Demandred is too dangerous to try and manipulate, but feels quite comfortable doing so to Graendal. I guess both of them base their feelings of superiority on gender bias, while Graendal is the only one with a true grasp of the situation?


Graendal kills people - she's a mass murderer. Anyone who looks over that really is a fool. As another poster says, if Aran'gar went up to Demandred to fondle him or woo him, he's balefire or kill her immediately. Graendal is more interested in bringing Aran'gar into some elaborate plot and using her to get what she can, and then either killing her or making her a slave. Aran'gar also tried her tricks with Cyndane and she said she'd rip her head off - which is the response I'd expect from Demandred too.

Besides, you're trying to make it all black and white, and it isn't. Graendal thinks that Semirhage or Demandred are both relatively equal as opponents, which is what the majority of powerful channelers think. It's like you want her to say that she'd much rather face Semirhage than Demandred. But she wouldn't rather do that - she would find that either contest would be the duel of her life. If you want to talk negative quoting, then show me where the Forsaken think of Semirhage as anything other than the most fearsome of opponents.

You're clearly of the opinion that Demandred can overwhelm any of the Forsaken if he wants to, but clearly he can't. The Shadow actively encouraged the murder of the competition and he couldn't rid himself of Graendal, Semirhage, Sammael or the others. He's still obviously not willing to try - it's too much of a risk and he knows there's a chance he could lose.

Oh, and let us not forget that Mesaana considered herself and Semirhage to be dead even. Even if they are not, they are clearly not GREATLY different in terms of the One Power. And yet Graendal seems to consider the gulf between Semirhage and Mesaana to be VAST. Is this again a case of Graendal being the only one who grasps the true state of affairs?


I rely on Robert Jordan as the base of my opinion - and he showed who the deadlist six Forsaken were, who were the most adept overall. This is why Moridin wonders who would win if Sammael and Graendal dueled. This is why Rahvin is uneasy when Graendal and Lanfear want to go for one another, or why Sammael sends a warning to Demandred. They're all pretty much on a par. The fact that Graendal debates it means that she's not certain of it herself. Mesaana might well be as strong as Semirhage in the Power, but seriously, who cares. As Graendal says, she never did anything great in the War of Power.

She also could not figure out that Sammael had totally duped her in CoS. Sammael, the one without any finesse, the "bull in the china shop", manipulated Graendal completely and utterly in CoS, and got her to play along with his plans to the letter. Only Moridin's interference led to Sammael's failure, and Graendal's hasty escape from the situation.


Oh I agree that Sammael got the better of her, but only because he used the ultimate lie which no one would dare use - that he'd become Nae'blis. When Moridin heard it, he gasped and wondered if it was true, and said that 'even Graendal' would fall for that, meaning that she has the most resilient of minds.

For a great psychiatrist she didn't see through the clumsy Sammael's ruse very well. In fact, he fooled her completely.


He did fool her completely. It wasn't a clumsy ruse though, it was extremely brave on Sammael's part. If it had been discovered that he claimed to be Nae'blis and it was a lie, he would have been killed. As it is, Moridin did discover, and Sammael just happened to die soon thereafter by Rand's hand.

"Possible?" ANYTHIHNG is "POSSIBLE".

What is more PROBABLE, is that it is open knowledge, only Graendal is so wrapped up in her pleasure games that she doesn't realise it. Resultingly, she considers it a huge achievement to know about their alliance, when none of the others are surprised by it.


It's open knowledge, but Graendal thinks it's a secret. How very plausible for someone of her stature. It must really make sense that RJ actually intended for Graendal of all people to turn out to be an imbecile.

Or EVERYONE, myself included, has been overestimating her intelligence since FoH. It is pretty clear that Moridin sees Demandred as the real threat amongst the remaining Chosen, and is using the carrot of a secondary position of authority to get Graendal to play along with him. He has Cyndane and Moghedien on a leash, Shaidar Haran has brought down Mesaana, and now Semirhage has been captured. Now all he needs to do is bring the Graendal/Arangar alliance under his command and his greatest competitor - Demandred - is completely isolated.


That is your interpretation of the situation, which is completely NOT hinted at by Moridin at any stage. Moridin's greatest competitor is not Demandred, it's Rand. All of the Forsaken are plotting to become Nae'blis at some stage, but only a few have the capabilities.

He is clearly playing Graendal, just like Sammael played her, and once again she is going along meekly. Only this time, the end result will most likely be fatal to her.


Moridin doesn't want the loss of more Chosen, which makes him unique. He actually wants them to work together to win the War against Rand. What should Graendal do... refuse to obey the Nae'blis? Planning to kill Rand is actually the point of being a Forsaken, you know.

Really now, for every vague reference you have there, I have a much more direct reference of a Forsaken quote showing significant acknowledgment of Demandred's stature. You know this, of course, but have no choice but to refer to these rather dubious examples.

Graendal calls him a fool to his face while wearing an angreal, Sammael blustered and threatened him in the same way he promised to kill Lanfear when he saw her again. In Demandred's absence.
And lastly, Lanfear was hardly mocking him when she truthfully made the statement that Demandred considers himself better than the other Forsaken. Once again, in his absence.


No one denies that Demandred is one of the most powerful of the Forsaken, but the other Chosen do not revere or respect him. They all want to kill him, but recognize that he is dangerous. You cannot claim that Graendal only threatens people when she has an angreal, when in fact she got into an open altercation with Lanfear before she got the angreal, and with Sammael too. Insults are sparse around Semirhage too, but it's mad to use it as evidence of anything.

Demandred's complacency is not a testament to his greatness, it's a testament to his flaws. Even Rand holds on to saidin around his enemies - Sammael, Rahvin, Lanfear, all of them ready against one another and filled with the Power. This is why Demandred almost gets flattened by people like Flinn and co - because he can't believe that anyone would ever challenge him openly. You cannot therefore use 'I would hunt Semirhage and kill her' as evidence of his power. Do you think Semirhage is thinking 'I hope Demandred never comes for me' or 'I'll kill Demandred if he comes for me'. The latter, of course. All the greater Forsaken think that they are supremely competent. Demandred has been planning to kill Lews Therin for 3,000 years, but he didn't risk it like Ishamael did, and so the threat hangs there and looms impotently.

It is pretty clear that most of the Forsaken have still not accepted that Rand has the full ability of an Age of Legends trained channeler. And I can refer to numerous quotes in that regard, throughout the series, but you know all of them, of course.


That is not the issue I raised. Lews Therin thinks that Semirhage is a channeler of surpassing power, but that she has a reputation as a torturer which overshadows that. Therefore Lews Therin and Graendal hold similar opinions on Semirhage.

Even so, Mesaana said that Demandred wouldn't go after Rand without a sa'angreal. With several Forsaken dead at Rand's feet, Demandred knows how dangerous al'Thor is.

He thought that to himself. His public statements have been much more reserved. He is not the Sammael type who makes blustery public statements.


Sammael was more aggressive than him as a general. Sammael said he'd kill Lanfear next time he saw her. He never saw her again. Do you doubt that he would have tried?

Yes. I think a picture is emerging of Graendal as being less of an evil genius and more of a self absorbed pleasure seeker with fading psychological skills.


I find this unlikely. Moridin sent her off to destroy Rand emotionally. This is not some red herring. He's going to weep when she's finished with him.

Ah, but the longer it is delayed, the better the climax.

I don't think so, but I hope he is for you - you've been waiting for years for him to show himself.





Wheel of Time board admin
Fan of Lanfear
This message last edited by Sidious on 19/09/2009 at 04:45:06 PM
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TGS Prologue - your thoughts (part 2) *spoilers* - 16/09/2009 04:55:21 AM 3264 Views
Where can i find it at? Can someone give me a link? *NM* - 18/09/2009 02:21:10 AM 214 Views
mobipocket.com - 18/09/2009 02:53:13 AM 663 Views
Thanks, It was interesting especially the last part of the prologue *NM* - 20/09/2009 02:42:28 AM 265 Views
Yep, to be truthful I really didn't see that coming. *NM* - 20/09/2009 03:03:12 AM 212 Views
A pointless survey - take your guess at who wrote what of the Prologue - 18/09/2009 01:30:24 PM 564 Views
As short as the prologue was - 18/09/2009 04:27:54 PM 572 Views
Re: A pointless survey - take your guess at who wrote what of the Prologue - 18/09/2009 07:08:43 PM 438 Views
How do you think this prologue compares to the previous ones? - 18/09/2009 01:52:59 PM 529 Views
Did only the audiobook ppl get the 2:30 of Harriet at the end? - 18/09/2009 03:07:27 PM 560 Views
nope and now I hate you *NM* - 18/09/2009 04:59:48 PM 306 Views
The interview - 18/09/2009 09:40:23 PM 590 Views
The prologue gives us strong evidence that Graendal is weaker than Demi or Semi - 18/09/2009 03:55:58 PM 642 Views
Well, Lanfear... - 20/09/2009 11:33:22 PM 617 Views
Is it me or do the Forsaken seem more viscious? - 18/09/2009 04:17:22 PM 631 Views
yep, leaner and meaner...except for mesaana-she's still twitchy after shadar haran *NM* - 18/09/2009 05:09:29 PM 316 Views
You blame her? *NM* - 18/09/2009 08:05:46 PM 253 Views
Not at all, I'd be more than "twitchy" if that happened to me - 19/09/2009 12:00:57 AM 514 Views
I get the feeling they want to jump ship - 19/09/2009 02:13:51 PM 585 Views
Trollocs! - 18/09/2009 05:35:12 PM 636 Views
Why not a gray man then? - 18/09/2009 07:52:55 PM 650 Views
I'm going to guess it was Demandred - 18/09/2009 08:12:19 PM 586 Views
What Cache is in Ebou Dar? - 19/09/2009 12:05:05 AM 614 Views
Because they wanted to destroy as much of the force as possible - 19/09/2009 12:07:57 AM 522 Views
But there's no plausible deniability - 19/09/2009 12:50:42 AM 567 Views
But even several grey men or slayer aren't going to get the deed done - 19/09/2009 02:28:36 AM 591 Views
Why? - 19/09/2009 03:25:34 AM 504 Views
simple answer:scouts - 19/09/2009 04:47:04 AM 525 Views
What day is it? Are the Suldam & Damane in the area? - 19/09/2009 05:32:54 PM 475 Views
Who is Graendal going to wack? - 18/09/2009 06:00:12 PM 597 Views
I think it could be Tam. *NM* - 18/09/2009 06:05:12 PM 282 Views
Great idea. - 18/09/2009 07:12:40 PM 555 Views
No one. - 23/09/2009 02:05:06 AM 467 Views
A possibility, but... - 23/09/2009 11:53:07 AM 516 Views
Well, yeah... - 23/09/2009 04:02:47 PM 503 Views
Isn't it obvious...Semirhage sent the Trollocs - 18/09/2009 06:38:15 PM 644 Views
Fades are smart enough though - 18/09/2009 07:54:02 PM 488 Views
Mesaana's statement gives us a big clue about Demandred's and Moridin's whereabouts - 18/09/2009 09:11:49 PM 691 Views
Or - 18/09/2009 10:38:52 PM 668 Views
My first thought was - 19/09/2009 02:20:39 AM 539 Views
My favorite quote: "Who will win? The child or the fool?" - Graendal - 18/09/2009 09:48:55 PM 651 Views
*NM* - 19/09/2009 04:20:29 AM 357 Views
but she didn't say 'the fool or the fool' - 19/09/2009 02:07:20 PM 555 Views
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Lol *NM* - 20/09/2009 08:26:53 AM 485 Views
Forsaken Chapter - 18/09/2009 10:30:10 PM 615 Views
I agree that Graendal will die in this book.... her and A'rangar *NM* - 19/09/2009 08:14:07 AM 259 Views
Re: Forsaken Chapter - 19/09/2009 09:53:31 AM 643 Views
Wrong... - 19/09/2009 01:41:25 PM 672 Views
I think we'll have to agree to disagree. - 19/09/2009 09:22:38 PM 690 Views
Huh - 19/09/2009 01:46:21 PM 751 Views
Re: Huh - 19/09/2009 02:21:43 PM 654 Views
Re: Huh - 19/09/2009 04:32:50 PM 673 Views
Fair enough... - 19/09/2009 05:08:33 PM 596 Views
Re: Forsaken Chapter - 19/09/2009 05:40:14 PM 525 Views
No, see my response to Agent Orange above. *NM* - 19/09/2009 06:07:14 PM 231 Views
Remove your blinders man... - 19/09/2009 07:16:03 PM 664 Views
After third reread - 18/09/2009 10:58:12 PM 590 Views
Ituralde's plan - 19/09/2009 02:04:58 PM 505 Views
Huh....hadn't thought about that - 19/09/2009 03:07:06 PM 612 Views
This makes perfect sense - 22/09/2009 07:35:49 PM 513 Views
Various comments - 19/09/2009 05:38:21 PM 636 Views
The Dying Man - 19/09/2009 06:48:09 PM 577 Views
Yeah, I thought it was Dobraine as well - 19/09/2009 08:30:13 PM 593 Views
Dobraine seems unlikely... - 20/09/2009 11:30:45 AM 483 Views
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After a reread I think I know who sent the Trollocs - 19/09/2009 08:28:08 PM 543 Views
That is a really stupid idea - 20/09/2009 01:20:09 AM 507 Views
Yeah - 20/09/2009 08:24:18 AM 503 Views
Another reason why Moridin is not Taim - 19/09/2009 08:41:03 PM 526 Views
This isn't evidence. - 19/09/2009 08:51:54 PM 638 Views
It isn't evidence, but it is another perspective to add to the table - 19/09/2009 09:11:15 PM 436 Views
Personally, I disagree. - 20/09/2009 03:22:24 AM 536 Views
Do you think Moridin is struggling like Rand is? - 19/09/2009 10:24:45 PM 450 Views
Re: Do you think Moridin is struggling like Rand is? - 19/09/2009 11:29:36 PM 525 Views
Why is Moridin and not Demandred marshalling the Dark Forces in the Blight? - 19/09/2009 10:35:06 PM 523 Views
I think there are many issues here - 19/09/2009 10:51:13 PM 631 Views
The Malign Influence of the Forsaken - 19/09/2009 11:08:00 PM 543 Views
I have doubts about that degree of conversion - 19/09/2009 11:17:44 PM 480 Views
Its a stretch, but... - 19/09/2009 11:34:28 PM 434 Views
I thought about that - 20/09/2009 08:26:02 AM 477 Views
Levee en Masse - 19/09/2009 10:51:54 PM 548 Views
I think Demendred might take over though - 20/09/2009 05:10:08 PM 435 Views
Did Demandred make the connection between Moridin's phantom hand-pain and Semirhage's firebolt? - 20/09/2009 12:11:32 PM 629 Views
I don't think that Demandred will be a key player at the end with Rand - 20/09/2009 01:00:58 PM 586 Views
Some sweeping statements there... - 20/09/2009 01:21:46 PM 577 Views
Not at all - 20/09/2009 03:34:59 PM 600 Views
A lot of twisting my words there, and direct contradictions of your own points... - 20/09/2009 04:19:57 PM 604 Views
Not really - 20/09/2009 05:12:42 PM 671 Views
I couldn't have summarized it better myself... - 20/09/2009 05:25:56 PM 495 Views
But... - 20/09/2009 06:01:33 PM 595 Views
Possible... - 20/09/2009 06:08:21 PM 508 Views
So that's your argument now? - 20/09/2009 07:35:52 PM 427 Views
I think you took that the wrong way... - 20/09/2009 08:53:28 PM 514 Views
Its simply, really. - 20/09/2009 09:05:42 PM 525 Views
Hmmm... - 20/09/2009 11:10:04 PM 554 Views
Fair enough... - 20/09/2009 11:12:53 PM 424 Views
Sure. *NM* - 20/09/2009 11:25:50 PM 254 Views
Wow, then I think you're in for a surprise - 20/09/2009 08:38:37 PM 490 Views
Well - 20/09/2009 08:56:43 PM 566 Views
Re: Well - 20/09/2009 09:40:51 PM 647 Views
Re: Wow, then I think you're in for a surprise - 20/09/2009 09:07:48 PM 481 Views
Just a general comment... - 20/09/2009 09:13:51 PM 644 Views
Re: Just a general comment... - 20/09/2009 09:59:51 PM 1455 Views
Re: Just a general comment... - 20/09/2009 10:19:14 PM 457 Views
Re: Just a general comment... - 21/09/2009 04:58:38 AM 412 Views
I reject the cult of the "cool" villain. - 20/09/2009 11:24:40 PM 531 Views
I don't really agree - 21/09/2009 05:02:10 AM 480 Views
But these aren't criminals... - 21/09/2009 05:47:40 AM 411 Views
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Re: No, just the most heinous criminals imaginable - 22/09/2009 10:49:58 PM 542 Views
Doubt it... - 20/09/2009 02:10:37 PM 593 Views
I tend to agree with you, this time. - 20/09/2009 05:05:35 PM 482 Views

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