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I agree that Graendal will die in this book.... her and A'rangar *NM* Matrimony Cauthon Send a noteboard - 19/09/2009 08:14:07 AM
I found the Forsaken chapter somewhat disappointing. It was clearly the work of someone who had all the superficial information about each Forsaken, but was trying to summarize their personalities all over again as if presenting it for the first time.

Graendal was talking about Demandred and Semirhage as if thinking about them for the first time. From this chapter you wouldn't think she'd known them for four thousand years, give or take a little. Or rather, for about 300 years in realtime, give or take a few decades.

As an example:

Based on Demandred's reaction to one comment from Moridin, Graendal suddenly changes her opinion regarding which of Demandred or Semirhage is the more dangerous to her? What the hell? It's not like she hasn't observed their respective tactics, attitudes and attributes over the course of a WORLD WAR that lasted for 10 years!

I would think that she would have made up her mind about their comparative strengths by now.

What is clear to me now is that the female Forsaken are even more gender-biased than the males when it comes to assessing the strengths of fellow Chosen. Everyone was criticising Rahvin for underestimating Lanfear in FoH, but Graendal seems to naturally consider the female Semirhage to be a foe as dangerous as Demandred. This despite her acknowledging that Demandred might have been the Dragon HIMSELF had he stayed with the Light!

That simply does not make sense. It is clear that Demandred is the leader of the trio. And it is also clear that Graendal is not half as cunning and intelligent as everyone has been making out up to now.


For one, it has NEVER before been suggested that Demandred sought to keep his alliance with Mesaana and Semirhage secret from the other Forsaken. For pete's sake, they've openly huddled together AT FORSAKEN MEETINGS in previous books. Arangar knew about their alliance in Book 11, yet she did not consider it to be any kind of achievement to have this insight. It is open knowledge. Yet Graendal thinks herself smart for "cracking that secret." I mean, come on.

And the way Graendal thinks about Moridin - making him her pet etc. She clearly has immense delusions of grandeur.

My estimation of Graendal has dropped SIGNIFICANTLY after reading this chapter.

What has come across yet again, however, is just how dangerous Demandred is. In EVERY appearance thus far, throughout the series, he has only been regarded with respect or awe by other Forsaken. We have had references to his ability and menace from almost all the Forsaken by now.

Graendal refers to the immense danger he presents, and then her female bias seems to elevate Semirhage to a position equal to that of a potential Dragon. Only for an instant, though, until Sanderson seems to bring reality home to us, however dubious the suggestion that Graendal had not yet analysed the comparative strengths of these two Forsaken a few thousand years ago already.

More revealing than Graendal's opionion, however, was Arangar's comparative view of Graendal and Demandred. The common thread between Arangar and Graendal's views was their high estimates for Demandred's ability. The difference, is that Arangar considered Graendal a far less dangerous adversary to try and manipulate. If I recall, her words were something to the effect that Demandred was far too dangerous to play her games with.

I particularly enjoyed the casual way Demandred stated that he would have tracked Semirhage down and claimed her life in retribution had she killed Rand. None of the other Forsaken reacted with ridicule at his statement. Certainly Mesaana did not, and she knows Semirhage's strength - having compared it to her own before.

And despite Demandred's arrogance, he has never made idle boasts before. If anything, the contrary has been true. He has refrained from making any kind of threats the less controlled Sammael was prone to make.

My conclusions based on this chapter:

Graendal is dumber than we thought up to now.

Graendal is going to die in this book.

Demandred's stature was enhanced yet again. He has consistently been built up as a Forsaken of note, and will no doubt make a dramatic entry towards the very end of the series, playing a key role in the final outcome.

Moridin is starting to put personal issues above the goals of the Dark One. Or rather, his insanity is making him even more stupid than before. The idea of sacrificing an asset of Semirhage's ability just because she hurt his phantom hand a little is petty and short sighted in the extreme.



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TGS Prologue - your thoughts (part 2) *spoilers* - 16/09/2009 04:55:21 AM 3263 Views
Where can i find it at? Can someone give me a link? *NM* - 18/09/2009 02:21:10 AM 213 Views
mobipocket.com - 18/09/2009 02:53:13 AM 662 Views
Thanks, It was interesting especially the last part of the prologue *NM* - 20/09/2009 02:42:28 AM 264 Views
Yep, to be truthful I really didn't see that coming. *NM* - 20/09/2009 03:03:12 AM 211 Views
A pointless survey - take your guess at who wrote what of the Prologue - 18/09/2009 01:30:24 PM 563 Views
As short as the prologue was - 18/09/2009 04:27:54 PM 572 Views
Re: A pointless survey - take your guess at who wrote what of the Prologue - 18/09/2009 07:08:43 PM 437 Views
How do you think this prologue compares to the previous ones? - 18/09/2009 01:52:59 PM 528 Views
Did only the audiobook ppl get the 2:30 of Harriet at the end? - 18/09/2009 03:07:27 PM 559 Views
nope and now I hate you *NM* - 18/09/2009 04:59:48 PM 305 Views
The interview - 18/09/2009 09:40:23 PM 590 Views
The prologue gives us strong evidence that Graendal is weaker than Demi or Semi - 18/09/2009 03:55:58 PM 641 Views
Well, Lanfear... - 20/09/2009 11:33:22 PM 616 Views
Is it me or do the Forsaken seem more viscious? - 18/09/2009 04:17:22 PM 631 Views
yep, leaner and meaner...except for mesaana-she's still twitchy after shadar haran *NM* - 18/09/2009 05:09:29 PM 315 Views
You blame her? *NM* - 18/09/2009 08:05:46 PM 252 Views
Not at all, I'd be more than "twitchy" if that happened to me - 19/09/2009 12:00:57 AM 513 Views
I get the feeling they want to jump ship - 19/09/2009 02:13:51 PM 585 Views
Trollocs! - 18/09/2009 05:35:12 PM 635 Views
Why not a gray man then? - 18/09/2009 07:52:55 PM 649 Views
I'm going to guess it was Demandred - 18/09/2009 08:12:19 PM 586 Views
What Cache is in Ebou Dar? - 19/09/2009 12:05:05 AM 613 Views
Because they wanted to destroy as much of the force as possible - 19/09/2009 12:07:57 AM 521 Views
But there's no plausible deniability - 19/09/2009 12:50:42 AM 566 Views
But even several grey men or slayer aren't going to get the deed done - 19/09/2009 02:28:36 AM 590 Views
Why? - 19/09/2009 03:25:34 AM 503 Views
simple answer:scouts - 19/09/2009 04:47:04 AM 524 Views
What day is it? Are the Suldam & Damane in the area? - 19/09/2009 05:32:54 PM 474 Views
Who is Graendal going to wack? - 18/09/2009 06:00:12 PM 596 Views
I think it could be Tam. *NM* - 18/09/2009 06:05:12 PM 281 Views
Great idea. - 18/09/2009 07:12:40 PM 554 Views
No one. - 23/09/2009 02:05:06 AM 466 Views
A possibility, but... - 23/09/2009 11:53:07 AM 515 Views
Well, yeah... - 23/09/2009 04:02:47 PM 502 Views
Isn't it obvious...Semirhage sent the Trollocs - 18/09/2009 06:38:15 PM 643 Views
Fades are smart enough though - 18/09/2009 07:54:02 PM 487 Views
Mesaana's statement gives us a big clue about Demandred's and Moridin's whereabouts - 18/09/2009 09:11:49 PM 690 Views
Or - 18/09/2009 10:38:52 PM 667 Views
My first thought was - 19/09/2009 02:20:39 AM 538 Views
My favorite quote: "Who will win? The child or the fool?" - Graendal - 18/09/2009 09:48:55 PM 650 Views
*NM* - 19/09/2009 04:20:29 AM 357 Views
but she didn't say 'the fool or the fool' - 19/09/2009 02:07:20 PM 554 Views
Yes, because Cannoli has long valued the opinions of the Forsaken... - 20/09/2009 06:10:58 AM 614 Views
Lol *NM* - 20/09/2009 08:26:53 AM 484 Views
Forsaken Chapter - 18/09/2009 10:30:10 PM 615 Views
I agree that Graendal will die in this book.... her and A'rangar *NM* - 19/09/2009 08:14:07 AM 259 Views
Re: Forsaken Chapter - 19/09/2009 09:53:31 AM 642 Views
Wrong... - 19/09/2009 01:41:25 PM 671 Views
I think we'll have to agree to disagree. - 19/09/2009 09:22:38 PM 689 Views
Huh - 19/09/2009 01:46:21 PM 750 Views
Re: Huh - 19/09/2009 02:21:43 PM 653 Views
Re: Huh - 19/09/2009 04:32:50 PM 672 Views
Fair enough... - 19/09/2009 05:08:33 PM 595 Views
Re: Forsaken Chapter - 19/09/2009 05:40:14 PM 524 Views
No, see my response to Agent Orange above. *NM* - 19/09/2009 06:07:14 PM 230 Views
Remove your blinders man... - 19/09/2009 07:16:03 PM 663 Views
After third reread - 18/09/2009 10:58:12 PM 589 Views
Ituralde's plan - 19/09/2009 02:04:58 PM 504 Views
Huh....hadn't thought about that - 19/09/2009 03:07:06 PM 611 Views
This makes perfect sense - 22/09/2009 07:35:49 PM 513 Views
Various comments - 19/09/2009 05:38:21 PM 635 Views
The Dying Man - 19/09/2009 06:48:09 PM 577 Views
Yeah, I thought it was Dobraine as well - 19/09/2009 08:30:13 PM 592 Views
Dobraine seems unlikely... - 20/09/2009 11:30:45 AM 482 Views
Symbolism - 20/09/2009 04:10:53 PM 460 Views
After a reread I think I know who sent the Trollocs - 19/09/2009 08:28:08 PM 542 Views
That is a really stupid idea - 20/09/2009 01:20:09 AM 506 Views
Yeah - 20/09/2009 08:24:18 AM 502 Views
Another reason why Moridin is not Taim - 19/09/2009 08:41:03 PM 525 Views
This isn't evidence. - 19/09/2009 08:51:54 PM 638 Views
It isn't evidence, but it is another perspective to add to the table - 19/09/2009 09:11:15 PM 435 Views
Personally, I disagree. - 20/09/2009 03:22:24 AM 536 Views
Do you think Moridin is struggling like Rand is? - 19/09/2009 10:24:45 PM 449 Views
Re: Do you think Moridin is struggling like Rand is? - 19/09/2009 11:29:36 PM 525 Views
Why is Moridin and not Demandred marshalling the Dark Forces in the Blight? - 19/09/2009 10:35:06 PM 522 Views
I think there are many issues here - 19/09/2009 10:51:13 PM 630 Views
The Malign Influence of the Forsaken - 19/09/2009 11:08:00 PM 542 Views
I have doubts about that degree of conversion - 19/09/2009 11:17:44 PM 479 Views
Its a stretch, but... - 19/09/2009 11:34:28 PM 433 Views
I thought about that - 20/09/2009 08:26:02 AM 476 Views
Levee en Masse - 19/09/2009 10:51:54 PM 547 Views
I think Demendred might take over though - 20/09/2009 05:10:08 PM 434 Views
Did Demandred make the connection between Moridin's phantom hand-pain and Semirhage's firebolt? - 20/09/2009 12:11:32 PM 628 Views
I don't think that Demandred will be a key player at the end with Rand - 20/09/2009 01:00:58 PM 585 Views
Some sweeping statements there... - 20/09/2009 01:21:46 PM 576 Views
Not at all - 20/09/2009 03:34:59 PM 599 Views
A lot of twisting my words there, and direct contradictions of your own points... - 20/09/2009 04:19:57 PM 603 Views
Not really - 20/09/2009 05:12:42 PM 671 Views
I couldn't have summarized it better myself... - 20/09/2009 05:25:56 PM 494 Views
But... - 20/09/2009 06:01:33 PM 594 Views
Possible... - 20/09/2009 06:08:21 PM 507 Views
So that's your argument now? - 20/09/2009 07:35:52 PM 426 Views
I think you took that the wrong way... - 20/09/2009 08:53:28 PM 513 Views
Its simply, really. - 20/09/2009 09:05:42 PM 524 Views
Hmmm... - 20/09/2009 11:10:04 PM 553 Views
Fair enough... - 20/09/2009 11:12:53 PM 423 Views
Sure. *NM* - 20/09/2009 11:25:50 PM 254 Views
Wow, then I think you're in for a surprise - 20/09/2009 08:38:37 PM 489 Views
Well - 20/09/2009 08:56:43 PM 565 Views
Re: Well - 20/09/2009 09:40:51 PM 646 Views
Re: Wow, then I think you're in for a surprise - 20/09/2009 09:07:48 PM 480 Views
Just a general comment... - 20/09/2009 09:13:51 PM 644 Views
Re: Just a general comment... - 20/09/2009 09:59:51 PM 1454 Views
Re: Just a general comment... - 20/09/2009 10:19:14 PM 456 Views
Re: Just a general comment... - 21/09/2009 04:58:38 AM 411 Views
I reject the cult of the "cool" villain. - 20/09/2009 11:24:40 PM 530 Views
I don't really agree - 21/09/2009 05:02:10 AM 480 Views
But these aren't criminals... - 21/09/2009 05:47:40 AM 410 Views
No, just the most heinous criminals imaginable - 21/09/2009 12:43:19 PM 618 Views
Re: No, just the most heinous criminals imaginable - 22/09/2009 10:49:58 PM 541 Views
Doubt it... - 20/09/2009 02:10:37 PM 592 Views
I tend to agree with you, this time. - 20/09/2009 05:05:35 PM 481 Views

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