I appreciate you acknowledging the admittedly remote possibility of Be'lals return. 
- Edit 1
- Edit 1Before modification by Joel at 27/03/2011 04:02:47 PM
Really, I'm with you 100% on the others and at least 50% on Be'lal, but I do have either a quibble or question, depending on how much author/editor/assistant commentary I've not seen:
I've always thought the "where" regarding Asmo referred, not to his distance from Shayol Ghul, but to the total lack of witnesses, delayed and scanty intelligence on Rand and his environs and the fact Asmodeans murder was such a complete surprise that even for the killer it was a crime of opportunity. In short, I think "where" he was killed referred to the DOs total ignorance of his death until long after the fact. He doesn't maintain constant surveillance even on the Forsaken to whom he remains connected, else Greandals subterfuges and "minor" betrayals wouldn't have gone unnoticed and unpunished as long as they did, so I think it quite probable the DO had no more control over Asmodeans fate than we did, because he had less warning of it. You can't resurrect someone you don't know is dead, y'know?
The circumstances surrounding Be'lals death were, as I'm sure you recall me stating, VERY different; virtually everyone who was anyone in the War of the Power was keeping a close eye on the whole proceeding; Ishy very deliberately and obviously waited until the issue was decided between Be'lal and Rand before even revealing his presence, and Lanfear was in the midst of a relentless stalking of Rand that didn't end until "Choices", to name just the ones that come to mind off the top of my head. Then, of course, there's Callandor, the thing that drew Rand to Tear--along with Be'lal and probably every other male Forsaken, all of whom knew the second most powerful male sa'angreal ever made was literally untouchable until Rand drew it, just as assuredly as Rand was FATED to draw it, at which point it was fair game for anyone who could take it from him, just like any other *'angreal. The odds a Forsaken or two would die trying were pretty good, and since Be'lal was sitting on the darned thing he'd be the favorite to die first. It almost seems like the DO was OBLIGATED to watch for Be'lals soul leaving his annihilated body, and if the few seconds Moiraine says she can manage to balefire even with an angreal aren't greater than the time it took her to form the weave it thus seems a given that the DO snatched him up when he saw what was coming. Even if that's not the case it's possible he could have anticipated what Moiraine would do (she'd already balefired Darkhounds outside Illian) and acted in time to save Be'lal, perhaps animating his body like a puppet for the few seconds necessary to draw the balefire.
Regardless, two things of which we may be certain are that:
1) The DO didn't have proof of Asmos death until long after we did and
2) With Ishy watching the whole show his knowledge of Be'lals death was practically immediate.
And, yes, I realize that even if we agree on all that it's still an extreme long shot, but if you're gonna gamble you might as well gamble big. A $5 bet is a $5 bet at 2:1 or 20:1, but the payoff's a lot higher for the second one.
Oh, and Aginor... Aginor was such a colossal failure that he has the dubious honor of being the first Forsaken to die as well as the first Forsaken to die TWICE--and he was such an effective Forsaken that to this day only the DO and the other Forsaken even know he was resurrected, let alone that he's already been killed again. If it's a $5 million dollar bet I prefer 2:1 to 20:1, and I don't like throwing good money after bad in any event; I doubt the DO does either. He got more use out of Elza, if only because she removed the always inept Aginor.
Be'lal: balefired, yes, but some believe the amount woven by Moiraine fits the "very small" criteria that could leave a small window of opportunity to the DO. That's quite unlikely IMO, first because Moiraine may think her weave small, but her strongest balefire (using her angreal too) is probably hardly "a very small amount". But most of all we can now interpret the hints RJ gave regarding Asmodean now that we know Graendal killed him. So RJ said the DO could not secure his soul because of the combination of two factors: where he died and how he was killed - not one or the other, but the two factors combined. That's pretty much accepted now as a confirmation that Graendal used a really small amount of balefire to kill Asmodean but also that distance from SG when a Forsaken dies is a factor in securing the soul. The farther from SG, the more difficult/longer it takes the DO, and any balefire reduces the "window of opportunity" for securing the soul, and in Asmodean's case it appears the combination of distance and balefire didn't let enough time to the DO. Had Asmodean been killed, say, in the Blight, the amount of balefire used still let enough time for Shai'tan to act. Had the amount of balefire used been great enough, the window of opportunity is gone at the moment of death.
That of course makes it doubtful the DO could secure Be'lal's soul in similar circumstances but much father away from SG and with no doubt a significantly more powerful balefire weave.
That of course makes it doubtful the DO could secure Be'lal's soul in similar circumstances but much father away from SG and with no doubt a significantly more powerful balefire weave.
I've always thought the "where" regarding Asmo referred, not to his distance from Shayol Ghul, but to the total lack of witnesses, delayed and scanty intelligence on Rand and his environs and the fact Asmodeans murder was such a complete surprise that even for the killer it was a crime of opportunity. In short, I think "where" he was killed referred to the DOs total ignorance of his death until long after the fact. He doesn't maintain constant surveillance even on the Forsaken to whom he remains connected, else Greandals subterfuges and "minor" betrayals wouldn't have gone unnoticed and unpunished as long as they did, so I think it quite probable the DO had no more control over Asmodeans fate than we did, because he had less warning of it. You can't resurrect someone you don't know is dead, y'know?
The circumstances surrounding Be'lals death were, as I'm sure you recall me stating, VERY different; virtually everyone who was anyone in the War of the Power was keeping a close eye on the whole proceeding; Ishy very deliberately and obviously waited until the issue was decided between Be'lal and Rand before even revealing his presence, and Lanfear was in the midst of a relentless stalking of Rand that didn't end until "Choices", to name just the ones that come to mind off the top of my head. Then, of course, there's Callandor, the thing that drew Rand to Tear--along with Be'lal and probably every other male Forsaken, all of whom knew the second most powerful male sa'angreal ever made was literally untouchable until Rand drew it, just as assuredly as Rand was FATED to draw it, at which point it was fair game for anyone who could take it from him, just like any other *'angreal. The odds a Forsaken or two would die trying were pretty good, and since Be'lal was sitting on the darned thing he'd be the favorite to die first. It almost seems like the DO was OBLIGATED to watch for Be'lals soul leaving his annihilated body, and if the few seconds Moiraine says she can manage to balefire even with an angreal aren't greater than the time it took her to form the weave it thus seems a given that the DO snatched him up when he saw what was coming. Even if that's not the case it's possible he could have anticipated what Moiraine would do (she'd already balefired Darkhounds outside Illian) and acted in time to save Be'lal, perhaps animating his body like a puppet for the few seconds necessary to draw the balefire.
Regardless, two things of which we may be certain are that:
1) The DO didn't have proof of Asmos death until long after we did and
2) With Ishy watching the whole show his knowledge of Be'lals death was practically immediate.
And, yes, I realize that even if we agree on all that it's still an extreme long shot, but if you're gonna gamble you might as well gamble big. A $5 bet is a $5 bet at 2:1 or 20:1, but the payoff's a lot higher for the second one.
Oh, and Aginor... Aginor was such a colossal failure that he has the dubious honor of being the first Forsaken to die as well as the first Forsaken to die TWICE--and he was such an effective Forsaken that to this day only the DO and the other Forsaken even know he was resurrected, let alone that he's already been killed again. If it's a $5 million dollar bet I prefer 2:1 to 20:1, and I don't like throwing good money after bad in any event; I doubt the DO does either. He got more use out of Elza, if only because she removed the always inept Aginor.