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Re: I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great' DomA Send a noteboard - 03/03/2011 02:17:06 PM
I can see what you're getting at, but it's a distinction that I don't accept. Although I agree there are many popular books that all one asks from is enjoyment (e.g. Dan Brown, JK Rowling, John Buchan, LM Montgomery), I don't agree that being popular renders a book/author ineligble for the classification of 'great' either.


You haven't read my post attentively then, as I've mentionned how Hugo is a great popular writer (ie: he wrote great stories) and is also widely recognized as a great writer (his prose, his works have recognized artistic value).

I make the distinction (and it's a traditional disctinction, by the way - not my own) between great popular writers and great writers because if you try to judge their works with the same criterias, most of the great popular writers will end up at the bottom of the list because of the lack of artistic/aesthethic value of their writing, unless you narrow your analysis to specific craft aspects, like storytelling, characters etc. - which is a lot about purely subjective notions, such as how fun the story is, or how much you like the characters.

You can compare the craftsmanship of J.K. Rowling and Jane Austen in storytelling, but if you try to compare their Art of writing, this is not even close to a contest (which is why I find stupid to look at most popular work with the "great writing" critical grid. As far as I know, Rowling has no artistic intent with her prose - it's pointless to look at her work from this angle (as one would for a "great writer" or an author with artistic ambitions, only to arrive at the foregone conclusion that her prose has little artistic value and use that to bash her gratuitously.


Are great popular writers like Rowling, Doyle, Dumas etc. as valuable and significant culturally as the great writers is not a debate I even got into and that I leave to others like you who try to put all writing in the same bag as I don't personally care - I enjoy reading both good popular literature - great stories - and the great writers, sometimes for the same reasons (a lot of great writers were also great storytellers...), more often for fairly different reasons and I can admire craftsmanship and art in literature both (I just can see the difference between the two). I merely touched on the artistic differences that exist between popular literature and great literature. I also don't equate the vague category of "the classics" with great literature. Tons of books that became classics are recognized as such for their ideas rather than their form.
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Can someone explain to me how Jordan is not a particularly good writer? newyorkersedai - 21/02/2011 05:41:31 PM 3204 Views
I personally see it as more of RJ being a fantastic story teller, but not a well structured writer. darius_sedai - 21/02/2011 06:44:21 PM 1596 Views
Re: I personally see it as more of RJ being a fantastic story teller, but not a well structured Lo'oris - 22/02/2011 10:59:25 PM 1234 Views
What do you think about the Southern Gothic authors? Ghavrel - 23/02/2011 08:08:26 AM 1100 Views
Re: What do you think about the Southern Gothic authors? Lo'oris - 23/02/2011 10:51:57 AM 1198 Views
Oh, it really depends. Ghavrel - 23/02/2011 05:39:07 PM 958 Views
thanks, I'll have a look *NM* Lo'oris - 23/02/2011 05:40:50 PM 774 Views
For the same reason that most people think they have above average intelligence. RabidWombat - 21/02/2011 11:13:34 PM 1561 Views
Thank you. Nargs - 21/02/2011 11:43:08 PM 1303 Views
Re: For the same reason that most people think they have above average intelligence. *NM* Gerbeaud - 22/02/2011 02:39:20 PM 869 Views
Re: For the same reason that most people think they have above average intelligence. Gerbeaud - 22/02/2011 02:41:37 PM 1035 Views
Well Said! Evil_Monkey - 22/02/2011 02:42:22 PM 1223 Views
That's possibly the best explanation of literary criticism I've ever seen. The Count - 23/02/2011 02:47:12 AM 1148 Views
I can take a shot at that, since nobody else seems willing to. Ghavrel - 22/02/2011 07:29:20 AM 1606 Views
Do you enjoy reading Robert Jordan's ... Nargs - 22/02/2011 04:31:28 PM 1287 Views
Not particularly. Ghavrel - 22/02/2011 10:22:00 PM 1388 Views
Agreed. Tom - 22/02/2011 10:37:08 PM 1170 Views
Re: I can take a shot at that, since nobody else seems willing to. Lo'oris - 22/02/2011 11:23:38 PM 1257 Views
That has very little to do with anything unless you can provide a real-world analogy to a channeler. Ghavrel - 22/02/2011 11:30:52 PM 1165 Views
Re: That has very little to do with anything unless you can provide a real-world analogy to a Lo'oris - 23/02/2011 12:02:24 AM 1211 Views
As far as I'm concerned, the only way to gauge whether an author is good or not is ... Velveti - 22/02/2011 03:58:17 PM 1145 Views
Amen *NM* Nargs - 22/02/2011 04:32:50 PM 763 Views
Re: Can someone explain to me how Jordan is not a particularly good writer? DomA - 22/02/2011 06:27:11 PM 2013 Views
Brain overload! This is really well thought out. RabidWombat - 23/02/2011 10:22:37 PM 1203 Views
thank you for the insight into the outside view lol Onarishma - 24/02/2011 04:34:57 PM 1260 Views
I think it has more to do with limitations imposed by how the story was organized and edited. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 22/02/2011 07:50:18 PM 1513 Views
That's interesting, and I have a weird agree/disagree here; also, that Adam Roberts sucks newyorkersedai - 23/02/2011 02:15:12 AM 1265 Views
Re: That's interesting, and I have a weird agree/disagree here; also, that Adam Roberts sucks Lo'oris - 23/02/2011 11:02:14 AM 1237 Views
adam roberts reviews uglycat - 23/02/2011 03:53:49 AM 1235 Views
And I suspect those who prefer the BS books are those who largely read WoT for the story. *NM* Ghavrel - 23/02/2011 08:06:16 AM 724 Views
Oh GAWD!... not another pointer to Robert Adam's incoherant muckraking HyogaRott - 24/02/2011 07:47:35 PM 1087 Views
I think DomA answered the question best, but the "do you like it" argument is weak. Tom - 22/02/2011 10:32:51 PM 1379 Views
Re: I think DomA answered the question best, but the "do you like it" argument is weak. Lo'oris - 22/02/2011 11:16:24 PM 1332 Views
The Necronomicon isn't actually a book, you know. *NM* Ghavrel - 22/02/2011 11:28:29 PM 682 Views
There are nine, actually... Lo'oris - 23/02/2011 12:04:55 AM 1383 Views
Lovecraft's Necronomicon was fictitious. If you want to count fanfiction, fine. *NM* Ghavrel - 23/02/2011 12:38:07 AM 745 Views
Based on how poorly worded that response was, I'm not sure what to think of it. *NM* Tom - 23/02/2011 12:13:00 AM 728 Views
I hope I am misunderstanding you. Stephen - 23/02/2011 10:57:47 PM 1080 Views
Re: I hope I am misunderstanding you. Lo'oris - 24/02/2011 10:41:09 AM 1227 Views
If the core of the story is all that matters, why read a book Stephen - 24/02/2011 10:32:01 PM 1167 Views
Re: If the core of the story is all that matters, why read a book Lo'oris - 24/02/2011 11:23:42 PM 1008 Views
So wait, style is good? Stephen - 25/02/2011 12:32:07 AM 1413 Views
Re: So wait, style is good? Lo'oris - 25/02/2011 08:53:55 AM 1056 Views
I'm not trolling Stephen - 25/02/2011 11:57:18 PM 1091 Views
That depends... DomA - 23/02/2011 03:00:35 AM 1302 Views
I didn't say aesthetics was the primary criterion. I named three criteria. Tom - 23/02/2011 05:39:03 AM 1173 Views
the "do you like it" is the most important criterion RabidWombat - 23/02/2011 10:45:17 PM 1165 Views
Re: the "do you like it" is the most important criterion DomA - 24/02/2011 01:53:59 AM 1161 Views
Thumbs up - IMHO, all discussion can end here Nargs - 28/02/2011 05:45:34 PM 1297 Views
Not for quality of writing. Tom - 24/02/2011 05:17:52 PM 1108 Views
Those who can do, the rest are critics. *NM* HyogaRott - 24/02/2011 07:55:50 PM 748 Views
I object, sir! People don't read WoT for the way it's told? newyorkersedai - 24/02/2011 12:58:58 AM 1213 Views
If you don't mind me asking... Fanatic-Templar - 24/02/2011 01:05:12 AM 992 Views
Re: If you don't mind me asking... DomA - 24/02/2011 02:19:17 AM 1105 Views
I still don't get it. Fanatic-Templar - 24/02/2011 08:27:50 AM 1003 Views
Re: If you don't mind me asking... Lo'oris - 24/02/2011 11:29:14 PM 1054 Views
I don't mind that you ask, but I'm not going to engage in a defense of literature. Tom - 24/02/2011 05:35:27 PM 989 Views
Re: I don't mind that you ask, but I'm not going to engage in a defense of literature. Lo'oris - 24/02/2011 11:26:55 PM 1153 Views
I'm sure you have a wonderful job awaiting in fast food service. Tom - 25/02/2011 01:57:15 AM 1202 Views
Re: I'm sure you have a wonderful job awaiting in fast food service. Lo'oris - 25/02/2011 08:56:06 AM 1116 Views
Jack @$$ snobbery at its best. WOW *NM* Nargs - 28/02/2011 05:48:43 PM 778 Views
... Fanatic-Templar - 25/02/2011 01:07:22 AM 1066 Views
Maybe you should have used better prose? fionwe1987 - 25/02/2011 01:23:17 AM 914 Views
It is not a serious question. Tom - 25/02/2011 01:53:59 AM 1049 Views
How so? fionwe1987 - 25/02/2011 02:59:05 AM 1191 Views
I have every right to use that tone. Tom - 25/02/2011 03:08:14 PM 1127 Views
Is that so? Fanatic-Templar - 25/02/2011 05:58:31 AM 1125 Views
I'm not fixated with Jordan. Tom - 25/02/2011 03:13:56 PM 1150 Views
Then why do you keep trying to qualify the passage in relation to him? Fanatic-Templar - 25/02/2011 06:29:31 PM 1191 Views
You're conflating two things. Tom - 25/02/2011 07:32:59 PM 1163 Views
All right, now we're getting somewhere. Fanatic-Templar - 26/02/2011 12:40:57 AM 1087 Views
you raise very good questions... *NM* Nargs - 26/02/2011 09:21:13 AM 681 Views
Okay, here you go. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt as to your sincerity. Tom - 26/02/2011 03:20:44 PM 916 Views
Thank you, and I agree with all your explanations. *NM* Fanatic-Templar - 26/02/2011 07:28:09 PM 698 Views
Glad to hear that. Tom - 27/02/2011 03:42:33 AM 1000 Views
No problem, these things happen on the internet. *NM* Fanatic-Templar - 27/02/2011 04:36:57 AM 752 Views
No, it is a serious question, just one that can never be seriously answered. HyogaRott - 25/02/2011 03:28:48 PM 1075 Views
Your opinion isn't as valid as anyone else's if that's your opinion. Tom - 25/02/2011 04:44:57 PM 1237 Views
Re: Your opinion isn't as valid as anyone else's if that's your opinion. HyogaRott - 25/02/2011 06:05:18 PM 1645 Views
I'm not wasting my time proving something to an internet moron and troll like you. Tom - 25/02/2011 07:36:19 PM 996 Views
Ah yes, the wonderful "dissmiss the person who disagrees with me by insulting him tactic" HyogaRott - 28/02/2011 02:30:35 PM 1008 Views
Re: Your opinion isn't as valid as anyone else's if that's your opinion. Lo'oris - 26/02/2011 11:06:26 AM 1049 Views
Jack @$$ snobbery at its best. WOW *NM* Nargs - 28/02/2011 05:51:48 PM 602 Views
double post. oh my! *NM* Nargs - 28/02/2011 05:52:17 PM 639 Views
Just makes you right twice *NM* HyogaRott - 28/02/2011 09:42:19 PM 733 Views
Re: ... Lo'oris - 25/02/2011 08:59:37 AM 1101 Views
And part 2, on the analysis of writing. newyorkersedai - 24/02/2011 01:16:20 AM 1123 Views
Florid desciption is usually not a good thing. Tom - 24/02/2011 05:30:30 PM 1083 Views
Re: I find this whole thing elitist and more than a bit silly GarethBryne - 23/02/2011 06:45:05 AM 1215 Views
Why do you think mind-expanding literature is restricted to the classics? Ghavrel - 23/02/2011 08:03:59 AM 1051 Views
Re: Why do you think mind-expanding literature is restricted to the classics? GarethBryne - 23/02/2011 09:25:10 AM 1224 Views
Of course people read for pleasure. Ghavrel - 23/02/2011 09:04:24 PM 1009 Views
Ok... Nargs - 24/02/2011 08:59:27 AM 1044 Views
"Yeah well, that's, like, just your opinion, man." Good argument. Ghavrel - 24/02/2011 03:43:24 PM 1120 Views
*NM* Tom - 24/02/2011 05:37:02 PM 641 Views
I find your above average tastes and intelligence uninspiring. Nargs - 24/02/2011 08:42:03 PM 986 Views
I'm curious to hear who Tom and DomA consider a "very good writer"? VTHokie - 24/02/2011 05:49:13 PM 1134 Views
Among living writers? Tom - 24/02/2011 08:16:08 PM 1171 Views
No Rushdie? fionwe1987 - 24/02/2011 09:22:46 PM 1068 Views
I was considering mentioning Rushdie. Tom - 24/02/2011 09:32:20 PM 1014 Views
My list would be similar... DomA - 26/02/2011 07:24:11 AM 1278 Views
That was a very good list. Tom - 26/02/2011 03:07:31 PM 1116 Views
Re: That was a very good list. DomA - 27/02/2011 04:51:43 AM 1162 Views
Once I finish Hugo I'm probably going to read Druon. Tom - 27/02/2011 02:30:03 PM 953 Views
Oh, and another question Tom - 27/02/2011 05:28:47 PM 960 Views
Re: Oh, and another question DomA - 01/03/2011 03:42:02 AM 1118 Views
One final question, if you'll indulge me... Tom - 01/03/2011 06:43:23 PM 1004 Views
Well, until I have time to return to your previous post but... DomA - 01/03/2011 07:45:13 PM 1143 Views
I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great' Iain83 - 27/02/2011 11:14:30 AM 1213 Views
You like Solzhenitsyn but not other Russian writers? Tom - 27/02/2011 02:43:46 PM 1130 Views
Re: You like Solzhenitsyn but not other Russian writers? Iain83 - 02/03/2011 11:47:19 PM 1222 Views
Re: I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great' DomA - 28/02/2011 11:51:49 PM 1241 Views
Re: I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great' Iain83 - 03/03/2011 12:01:30 AM 1151 Views
Link to DomA Post from up above: Nargs - 03/03/2011 12:20:11 AM 1390 Views
Re: I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great' DomA - 03/03/2011 02:17:06 PM 1100 Views
He's a great storyteller, but his prose is somewhat uninspiring. *NM* Marshall - 27/02/2011 07:28:00 PM 770 Views
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