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Re: I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great' DomA Send a noteboard - 03/03/2011 02:17:06 PM
I can see what you're getting at, but it's a distinction that I don't accept. Although I agree there are many popular books that all one asks from is enjoyment (e.g. Dan Brown, JK Rowling, John Buchan, LM Montgomery), I don't agree that being popular renders a book/author ineligble for the classification of 'great' either.


You haven't read my post attentively then, as I've mentionned how Hugo is a great popular writer (ie: he wrote great stories) and is also widely recognized as a great writer (his prose, his works have recognized artistic value).

I make the distinction (and it's a traditional disctinction, by the way - not my own) between great popular writers and great writers because if you try to judge their works with the same criterias, most of the great popular writers will end up at the bottom of the list because of the lack of artistic/aesthethic value of their writing, unless you narrow your analysis to specific craft aspects, like storytelling, characters etc. - which is a lot about purely subjective notions, such as how fun the story is, or how much you like the characters.

You can compare the craftsmanship of J.K. Rowling and Jane Austen in storytelling, but if you try to compare their Art of writing, this is not even close to a contest (which is why I find stupid to look at most popular work with the "great writing" critical grid. As far as I know, Rowling has no artistic intent with her prose - it's pointless to look at her work from this angle (as one would for a "great writer" or an author with artistic ambitions, only to arrive at the foregone conclusion that her prose has little artistic value and use that to bash her gratuitously.


Are great popular writers like Rowling, Doyle, Dumas etc. as valuable and significant culturally as the great writers is not a debate I even got into and that I leave to others like you who try to put all writing in the same bag as I don't personally care - I enjoy reading both good popular literature - great stories - and the great writers, sometimes for the same reasons (a lot of great writers were also great storytellers...), more often for fairly different reasons and I can admire craftsmanship and art in literature both (I just can see the difference between the two). I merely touched on the artistic differences that exist between popular literature and great literature. I also don't equate the vague category of "the classics" with great literature. Tons of books that became classics are recognized as such for their ideas rather than their form.
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Can someone explain to me how Jordan is not a particularly good writer? newyorkersedai - 21/02/2011 05:41:31 PM 3188 Views
I personally see it as more of RJ being a fantastic story teller, but not a well structured writer. darius_sedai - 21/02/2011 06:44:21 PM 1579 Views
Re: I personally see it as more of RJ being a fantastic story teller, but not a well structured Lo'oris - 22/02/2011 10:59:25 PM 1220 Views
What do you think about the Southern Gothic authors? Ghavrel - 23/02/2011 08:08:26 AM 1085 Views
Re: What do you think about the Southern Gothic authors? Lo'oris - 23/02/2011 10:51:57 AM 1181 Views
Oh, it really depends. Ghavrel - 23/02/2011 05:39:07 PM 941 Views
thanks, I'll have a look *NM* Lo'oris - 23/02/2011 05:40:50 PM 767 Views
For the same reason that most people think they have above average intelligence. RabidWombat - 21/02/2011 11:13:34 PM 1548 Views
Thank you. Nargs - 21/02/2011 11:43:08 PM 1288 Views
Re: For the same reason that most people think they have above average intelligence. *NM* Gerbeaud - 22/02/2011 02:39:20 PM 863 Views
Re: For the same reason that most people think they have above average intelligence. Gerbeaud - 22/02/2011 02:41:37 PM 1022 Views
Well Said! Evil_Monkey - 22/02/2011 02:42:22 PM 1209 Views
That's possibly the best explanation of literary criticism I've ever seen. The Count - 23/02/2011 02:47:12 AM 1138 Views
I can take a shot at that, since nobody else seems willing to. Ghavrel - 22/02/2011 07:29:20 AM 1587 Views
Do you enjoy reading Robert Jordan's ... Nargs - 22/02/2011 04:31:28 PM 1263 Views
Not particularly. Ghavrel - 22/02/2011 10:22:00 PM 1368 Views
Agreed. Tom - 22/02/2011 10:37:08 PM 1151 Views
Re: I can take a shot at that, since nobody else seems willing to. Lo'oris - 22/02/2011 11:23:38 PM 1242 Views
That has very little to do with anything unless you can provide a real-world analogy to a channeler. Ghavrel - 22/02/2011 11:30:52 PM 1149 Views
Re: That has very little to do with anything unless you can provide a real-world analogy to a Lo'oris - 23/02/2011 12:02:24 AM 1195 Views
As far as I'm concerned, the only way to gauge whether an author is good or not is ... Velveti - 22/02/2011 03:58:17 PM 1126 Views
Amen *NM* Nargs - 22/02/2011 04:32:50 PM 754 Views
Re: Can someone explain to me how Jordan is not a particularly good writer? DomA - 22/02/2011 06:27:11 PM 1995 Views
Brain overload! This is really well thought out. RabidWombat - 23/02/2011 10:22:37 PM 1180 Views
thank you for the insight into the outside view lol Onarishma - 24/02/2011 04:34:57 PM 1245 Views
I think it has more to do with limitations imposed by how the story was organized and edited. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 22/02/2011 07:50:18 PM 1496 Views
That's interesting, and I have a weird agree/disagree here; also, that Adam Roberts sucks newyorkersedai - 23/02/2011 02:15:12 AM 1252 Views
Re: That's interesting, and I have a weird agree/disagree here; also, that Adam Roberts sucks Lo'oris - 23/02/2011 11:02:14 AM 1221 Views
adam roberts reviews uglycat - 23/02/2011 03:53:49 AM 1221 Views
And I suspect those who prefer the BS books are those who largely read WoT for the story. *NM* Ghavrel - 23/02/2011 08:06:16 AM 716 Views
Oh GAWD!... not another pointer to Robert Adam's incoherant muckraking HyogaRott - 24/02/2011 07:47:35 PM 1071 Views
I think DomA answered the question best, but the "do you like it" argument is weak. Tom - 22/02/2011 10:32:51 PM 1361 Views
Re: I think DomA answered the question best, but the "do you like it" argument is weak. Lo'oris - 22/02/2011 11:16:24 PM 1316 Views
The Necronomicon isn't actually a book, you know. *NM* Ghavrel - 22/02/2011 11:28:29 PM 675 Views
There are nine, actually... Lo'oris - 23/02/2011 12:04:55 AM 1363 Views
Lovecraft's Necronomicon was fictitious. If you want to count fanfiction, fine. *NM* Ghavrel - 23/02/2011 12:38:07 AM 738 Views
Based on how poorly worded that response was, I'm not sure what to think of it. *NM* Tom - 23/02/2011 12:13:00 AM 721 Views
I hope I am misunderstanding you. Stephen - 23/02/2011 10:57:47 PM 1065 Views
Re: I hope I am misunderstanding you. Lo'oris - 24/02/2011 10:41:09 AM 1212 Views
If the core of the story is all that matters, why read a book Stephen - 24/02/2011 10:32:01 PM 1150 Views
Re: If the core of the story is all that matters, why read a book Lo'oris - 24/02/2011 11:23:42 PM 989 Views
So wait, style is good? Stephen - 25/02/2011 12:32:07 AM 1400 Views
Re: So wait, style is good? Lo'oris - 25/02/2011 08:53:55 AM 1039 Views
I'm not trolling Stephen - 25/02/2011 11:57:18 PM 1078 Views
That depends... DomA - 23/02/2011 03:00:35 AM 1285 Views
I didn't say aesthetics was the primary criterion. I named three criteria. Tom - 23/02/2011 05:39:03 AM 1159 Views
the "do you like it" is the most important criterion RabidWombat - 23/02/2011 10:45:17 PM 1152 Views
Re: the "do you like it" is the most important criterion DomA - 24/02/2011 01:53:59 AM 1141 Views
Thumbs up - IMHO, all discussion can end here Nargs - 28/02/2011 05:45:34 PM 1281 Views
Not for quality of writing. Tom - 24/02/2011 05:17:52 PM 1086 Views
Those who can do, the rest are critics. *NM* HyogaRott - 24/02/2011 07:55:50 PM 741 Views
I object, sir! People don't read WoT for the way it's told? newyorkersedai - 24/02/2011 12:58:58 AM 1196 Views
If you don't mind me asking... Fanatic-Templar - 24/02/2011 01:05:12 AM 973 Views
Re: If you don't mind me asking... DomA - 24/02/2011 02:19:17 AM 1087 Views
I still don't get it. Fanatic-Templar - 24/02/2011 08:27:50 AM 989 Views
Re: If you don't mind me asking... Lo'oris - 24/02/2011 11:29:14 PM 1035 Views
I don't mind that you ask, but I'm not going to engage in a defense of literature. Tom - 24/02/2011 05:35:27 PM 971 Views
Re: I don't mind that you ask, but I'm not going to engage in a defense of literature. Lo'oris - 24/02/2011 11:26:55 PM 1135 Views
I'm sure you have a wonderful job awaiting in fast food service. Tom - 25/02/2011 01:57:15 AM 1188 Views
Re: I'm sure you have a wonderful job awaiting in fast food service. Lo'oris - 25/02/2011 08:56:06 AM 1097 Views
Jack @$$ snobbery at its best. WOW *NM* Nargs - 28/02/2011 05:48:43 PM 769 Views
... Fanatic-Templar - 25/02/2011 01:07:22 AM 1047 Views
Maybe you should have used better prose? fionwe1987 - 25/02/2011 01:23:17 AM 896 Views
It is not a serious question. Tom - 25/02/2011 01:53:59 AM 1032 Views
How so? fionwe1987 - 25/02/2011 02:59:05 AM 1175 Views
I have every right to use that tone. Tom - 25/02/2011 03:08:14 PM 1114 Views
Is that so? Fanatic-Templar - 25/02/2011 05:58:31 AM 1107 Views
I'm not fixated with Jordan. Tom - 25/02/2011 03:13:56 PM 1128 Views
Then why do you keep trying to qualify the passage in relation to him? Fanatic-Templar - 25/02/2011 06:29:31 PM 1169 Views
You're conflating two things. Tom - 25/02/2011 07:32:59 PM 1144 Views
All right, now we're getting somewhere. Fanatic-Templar - 26/02/2011 12:40:57 AM 1066 Views
you raise very good questions... *NM* Nargs - 26/02/2011 09:21:13 AM 674 Views
Okay, here you go. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt as to your sincerity. Tom - 26/02/2011 03:20:44 PM 897 Views
Thank you, and I agree with all your explanations. *NM* Fanatic-Templar - 26/02/2011 07:28:09 PM 687 Views
Glad to hear that. Tom - 27/02/2011 03:42:33 AM 985 Views
No problem, these things happen on the internet. *NM* Fanatic-Templar - 27/02/2011 04:36:57 AM 746 Views
No, it is a serious question, just one that can never be seriously answered. HyogaRott - 25/02/2011 03:28:48 PM 1056 Views
Your opinion isn't as valid as anyone else's if that's your opinion. Tom - 25/02/2011 04:44:57 PM 1215 Views
Re: Your opinion isn't as valid as anyone else's if that's your opinion. HyogaRott - 25/02/2011 06:05:18 PM 1625 Views
I'm not wasting my time proving something to an internet moron and troll like you. Tom - 25/02/2011 07:36:19 PM 981 Views
Ah yes, the wonderful "dissmiss the person who disagrees with me by insulting him tactic" HyogaRott - 28/02/2011 02:30:35 PM 990 Views
Re: Your opinion isn't as valid as anyone else's if that's your opinion. Lo'oris - 26/02/2011 11:06:26 AM 1032 Views
Jack @$$ snobbery at its best. WOW *NM* Nargs - 28/02/2011 05:51:48 PM 594 Views
double post. oh my! *NM* Nargs - 28/02/2011 05:52:17 PM 633 Views
Just makes you right twice *NM* HyogaRott - 28/02/2011 09:42:19 PM 724 Views
Re: ... Lo'oris - 25/02/2011 08:59:37 AM 1085 Views
And part 2, on the analysis of writing. newyorkersedai - 24/02/2011 01:16:20 AM 1109 Views
Florid desciption is usually not a good thing. Tom - 24/02/2011 05:30:30 PM 1062 Views
Re: I find this whole thing elitist and more than a bit silly GarethBryne - 23/02/2011 06:45:05 AM 1198 Views
Why do you think mind-expanding literature is restricted to the classics? Ghavrel - 23/02/2011 08:03:59 AM 1030 Views
Re: Why do you think mind-expanding literature is restricted to the classics? GarethBryne - 23/02/2011 09:25:10 AM 1204 Views
Of course people read for pleasure. Ghavrel - 23/02/2011 09:04:24 PM 995 Views
Ok... Nargs - 24/02/2011 08:59:27 AM 1030 Views
"Yeah well, that's, like, just your opinion, man." Good argument. Ghavrel - 24/02/2011 03:43:24 PM 1106 Views
*NM* Tom - 24/02/2011 05:37:02 PM 632 Views
I find your above average tastes and intelligence uninspiring. Nargs - 24/02/2011 08:42:03 PM 970 Views
I'm curious to hear who Tom and DomA consider a "very good writer"? VTHokie - 24/02/2011 05:49:13 PM 1120 Views
Among living writers? Tom - 24/02/2011 08:16:08 PM 1156 Views
No Rushdie? fionwe1987 - 24/02/2011 09:22:46 PM 1047 Views
I was considering mentioning Rushdie. Tom - 24/02/2011 09:32:20 PM 995 Views
My list would be similar... DomA - 26/02/2011 07:24:11 AM 1258 Views
That was a very good list. Tom - 26/02/2011 03:07:31 PM 1091 Views
Re: That was a very good list. DomA - 27/02/2011 04:51:43 AM 1147 Views
Once I finish Hugo I'm probably going to read Druon. Tom - 27/02/2011 02:30:03 PM 937 Views
Oh, and another question Tom - 27/02/2011 05:28:47 PM 940 Views
Re: Oh, and another question DomA - 01/03/2011 03:42:02 AM 1094 Views
One final question, if you'll indulge me... Tom - 01/03/2011 06:43:23 PM 989 Views
Well, until I have time to return to your previous post but... DomA - 01/03/2011 07:45:13 PM 1129 Views
I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great' Iain83 - 27/02/2011 11:14:30 AM 1200 Views
You like Solzhenitsyn but not other Russian writers? Tom - 27/02/2011 02:43:46 PM 1116 Views
Re: You like Solzhenitsyn but not other Russian writers? Iain83 - 02/03/2011 11:47:19 PM 1205 Views
Re: I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great' DomA - 28/02/2011 11:51:49 PM 1226 Views
Re: I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great' Iain83 - 03/03/2011 12:01:30 AM 1133 Views
Link to DomA Post from up above: Nargs - 03/03/2011 12:20:11 AM 1367 Views
Re: I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great' DomA - 03/03/2011 02:17:06 PM 1081 Views
He's a great storyteller, but his prose is somewhat uninspiring. *NM* Marshall - 27/02/2011 07:28:00 PM 760 Views
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