Re: I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great'
Iain83 Send a noteboard - 03/03/2011 12:01:30 AM
I can see what you're getting at, but it's a distinction that I don't accept. Although I agree there are many popular books that all one asks from is enjoyment (e.g. Dan Brown, JK Rowling, John Buchan, LM Montgomery), I don't agree that being popular renders a book/author ineligble for the classification of 'great' either.
Essentially, I think I'm just more willing to award the title of 'great' to an author who excels in matters of ideas, characterisation, imagery or story-telling (at a level far beyond what's necessary to be enjoyable). Great means you excel in your field, whatever that may be. So, someone who is 'one of the best writers of French popular literature' whose 'genius was story-telling' is someone I'd call 'great'.
That's more the exception than the norm with most of the writers I've listed, but you also have to consider my culture is not yours, and the French literary tradition is (and even more, was) quite different from the anglo-saxon one. French and English for all their similarities remain very different languages, and have different aesthetics.
Most of the writers I've listed are hardly florid and in fact some like Zola, Camus are recognized for the very opposite!
As for "poetic", this has a slightly different value in the French language (and it's not exclusive to French... Japanese, Russian, Chinese... many languages values the poetic aspect of prose a great deal more than it's done in English (except of course in poetry in its various forms), that values "efficiency" over beauty in prose. By "poetic" the French don't necessarily mean the language is close to the aesthetics of classic poetry. It's more the combination of how interesting it sounds aloud (the musicality, the rhythm), and how evocative it is.
As an aside, that's hardly the sole standards by which French culture has traditionally judged what is and isn't "great literature", especially foreign ones, for which the French just don't expect French aesthetics and are far more interested in substance, vision, perspective for foreign books (they value that a lot in French literature too, of course - it's not all or necessarily primarly about "beautiful prose". The French don't like beautiful prose without substance (but do say that writing great ideas with average prose is a shame!).
Fair enough - I'm much less familiar with books of other languages, so much of our difference in definition may well be to do with a difference in cultural definition.
Essentially, I think I'm just more willing to award the title of 'great' to an author who excels in matters of ideas, characterisation, imagery or story-telling (at a level far beyond what's necessary to be enjoyable). Great means you excel in your field, whatever that may be. So, someone who is 'one of the best writers of French popular literature' whose 'genius was story-telling' is someone I'd call 'great'.
That's more the exception than the norm with most of the writers I've listed, but you also have to consider my culture is not yours, and the French literary tradition is (and even more, was) quite different from the anglo-saxon one. French and English for all their similarities remain very different languages, and have different aesthetics.
Most of the writers I've listed are hardly florid and in fact some like Zola, Camus are recognized for the very opposite!
As for "poetic", this has a slightly different value in the French language (and it's not exclusive to French... Japanese, Russian, Chinese... many languages values the poetic aspect of prose a great deal more than it's done in English (except of course in poetry in its various forms), that values "efficiency" over beauty in prose. By "poetic" the French don't necessarily mean the language is close to the aesthetics of classic poetry. It's more the combination of how interesting it sounds aloud (the musicality, the rhythm), and how evocative it is.
As an aside, that's hardly the sole standards by which French culture has traditionally judged what is and isn't "great literature", especially foreign ones, for which the French just don't expect French aesthetics and are far more interested in substance, vision, perspective for foreign books (they value that a lot in French literature too, of course - it's not all or necessarily primarly about "beautiful prose". The French don't like beautiful prose without substance (but do say that writing great ideas with average prose is a shame!).
Fair enough - I'm much less familiar with books of other languages, so much of our difference in definition may well be to do with a difference in cultural definition.
Can someone explain to me how Jordan is not a particularly good writer?
21/02/2011 05:41:31 PM
- 3238 Views
I personally see it as more of RJ being a fantastic story teller, but not a well structured writer.
21/02/2011 06:44:21 PM
- 1632 Views
Re: I personally see it as more of RJ being a fantastic story teller, but not a well structured
22/02/2011 10:59:25 PM
- 1263 Views
What do you think about the Southern Gothic authors?
23/02/2011 08:08:26 AM
- 1130 Views
Re: What do you think about the Southern Gothic authors?
23/02/2011 10:51:57 AM
- 1226 Views
For the same reason that most people think they have above average intelligence.
21/02/2011 11:13:34 PM
- 1587 Views
Re: For the same reason that most people think they have above average intelligence. *NM*
22/02/2011 02:39:20 PM
- 882 Views
Re: For the same reason that most people think they have above average intelligence.
22/02/2011 02:41:37 PM
- 1067 Views
That's possibly the best explanation of literary criticism I've ever seen.
23/02/2011 02:47:12 AM
- 1186 Views
I can take a shot at that, since nobody else seems willing to.
22/02/2011 07:29:20 AM
- 1640 Views
Re: I can take a shot at that, since nobody else seems willing to.
22/02/2011 11:23:38 PM
- 1285 Views
That has very little to do with anything unless you can provide a real-world analogy to a channeler.
22/02/2011 11:30:52 PM
- 1198 Views
Re: That has very little to do with anything unless you can provide a real-world analogy to a
23/02/2011 12:02:24 AM
- 1240 Views
As far as I'm concerned, the only way to gauge whether an author is good or not is ...
22/02/2011 03:58:17 PM
- 1179 Views
Re: Can someone explain to me how Jordan is not a particularly good writer?
22/02/2011 06:27:11 PM
- 2040 Views
I think it has more to do with limitations imposed by how the story was organized and edited.
22/02/2011 07:50:18 PM
- 1548 Views
That's interesting, and I have a weird agree/disagree here; also, that Adam Roberts sucks
23/02/2011 02:15:12 AM
- 1300 Views
Re: That's interesting, and I have a weird agree/disagree here; also, that Adam Roberts sucks
23/02/2011 11:02:14 AM
- 1264 Views
adam roberts reviews
23/02/2011 03:53:49 AM
- 1260 Views
And I suspect those who prefer the BS books are those who largely read WoT for the story. *NM*
23/02/2011 08:06:16 AM
- 735 Views
Oh GAWD!... not another pointer to Robert Adam's incoherant muckraking
24/02/2011 07:47:35 PM
- 1119 Views
I think DomA answered the question best, but the "do you like it" argument is weak.
22/02/2011 10:32:51 PM
- 1412 Views
Re: I think DomA answered the question best, but the "do you like it" argument is weak.
22/02/2011 11:16:24 PM
- 1366 Views
The Necronomicon isn't actually a book, you know. *NM*
22/02/2011 11:28:29 PM
- 694 Views
There are nine, actually...
23/02/2011 12:04:55 AM
- 1417 Views
Lovecraft's Necronomicon was fictitious. If you want to count fanfiction, fine. *NM*
23/02/2011 12:38:07 AM
- 759 Views
Based on how poorly worded that response was, I'm not sure what to think of it. *NM*
23/02/2011 12:13:00 AM
- 741 Views
I hope I am misunderstanding you.
23/02/2011 10:57:47 PM
- 1113 Views
Re: I hope I am misunderstanding you.
24/02/2011 10:41:09 AM
- 1251 Views
If the core of the story is all that matters, why read a book
24/02/2011 10:32:01 PM
- 1202 Views
Re: If the core of the story is all that matters, why read a book
24/02/2011 11:23:42 PM
- 1041 Views
So wait, style is good?
25/02/2011 12:32:07 AM
- 1441 Views
That depends...
23/02/2011 03:00:35 AM
- 1337 Views
I didn't say aesthetics was the primary criterion. I named three criteria.
23/02/2011 05:39:03 AM
- 1200 Views
the "do you like it" is the most important criterion
23/02/2011 10:45:17 PM
- 1196 Views
If you don't mind me asking...
24/02/2011 01:05:12 AM
- 1021 Views
I don't mind that you ask, but I'm not going to engage in a defense of literature.
24/02/2011 05:35:27 PM
- 1025 Views
Re: I don't mind that you ask, but I'm not going to engage in a defense of literature.
24/02/2011 11:26:55 PM
- 1187 Views
I'm sure you have a wonderful job awaiting in fast food service.
25/02/2011 01:57:15 AM
- 1237 Views
Re: I'm sure you have a wonderful job awaiting in fast food service.
25/02/2011 08:56:06 AM
- 1137 Views
...
25/02/2011 01:07:22 AM
- 1095 Views
It is not a serious question.
25/02/2011 01:53:59 AM
- 1075 Views
Is that so?
25/02/2011 05:58:31 AM
- 1159 Views
I'm not fixated with Jordan.
25/02/2011 03:13:56 PM
- 1178 Views
Then why do you keep trying to qualify the passage in relation to him?
25/02/2011 06:29:31 PM
- 1221 Views
You're conflating two things.
25/02/2011 07:32:59 PM
- 1195 Views
All right, now we're getting somewhere.
26/02/2011 12:40:57 AM
- 1126 Views
Okay, here you go. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt as to your sincerity.
26/02/2011 03:20:44 PM
- 947 Views
Thank you, and I agree with all your explanations. *NM*
26/02/2011 07:28:09 PM
- 712 Views
No, it is a serious question, just one that can never be seriously answered.
25/02/2011 03:28:48 PM
- 1098 Views
Your opinion isn't as valid as anyone else's if that's your opinion.
25/02/2011 04:44:57 PM
- 1264 Views
Re: Your opinion isn't as valid as anyone else's if that's your opinion.
25/02/2011 06:05:18 PM
- 1677 Views
I'm not wasting my time proving something to an internet moron and troll like you.
25/02/2011 07:36:19 PM
- 1028 Views
Ah yes, the wonderful "dissmiss the person who disagrees with me by insulting him tactic"
28/02/2011 02:30:35 PM
- 1042 Views
Re: Your opinion isn't as valid as anyone else's if that's your opinion.
26/02/2011 11:06:26 AM
- 1075 Views
Re: I find this whole thing elitist and more than a bit silly
23/02/2011 06:45:05 AM
- 1247 Views
Why do you think mind-expanding literature is restricted to the classics?
23/02/2011 08:03:59 AM
- 1078 Views
Re: Why do you think mind-expanding literature is restricted to the classics?
23/02/2011 09:25:10 AM
- 1262 Views
Of course people read for pleasure.
23/02/2011 09:04:24 PM
- 1041 Views
Ok...
24/02/2011 08:59:27 AM
- 1077 Views
"Yeah well, that's, like, just your opinion, man." Good argument.
24/02/2011 03:43:24 PM
- 1152 Views
I'm curious to hear who Tom and DomA consider a "very good writer"?
24/02/2011 05:49:13 PM
- 1155 Views
Among living writers?
24/02/2011 08:16:08 PM
- 1199 Views
My list would be similar...
26/02/2011 07:24:11 AM
- 1305 Views
That was a very good list.
26/02/2011 03:07:31 PM
- 1150 Views
Re: That was a very good list.
27/02/2011 04:51:43 AM
- 1198 Views
Oh, and another question
27/02/2011 05:28:47 PM
- 979 Views
Re: Oh, and another question
01/03/2011 03:42:02 AM
- 1142 Views
I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great'
27/02/2011 11:14:30 AM
- 1242 Views
Re: I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great'
28/02/2011 11:51:49 PM
- 1271 Views
Re: I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great'
03/03/2011 12:01:30 AM
- 1180 Views
Re: I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great'
03/03/2011 02:17:06 PM
- 1128 Views
He's a great storyteller, but his prose is somewhat uninspiring. *NM*
27/02/2011 07:28:00 PM
- 784 Views