Active Users:449 Time:15/11/2024 07:43:07 PM
Re: That was a very good list. DomA Send a noteboard - 27/02/2011 04:51:43 AM
To respond to different points without cutting/pasting:

1. I completely agree with your view on Kundera. I think his quality has gone down and he doesn't seem to be able to find new compelling things to write about, but his earlier works are great.


Since his switch to French to write, more or less. I've not totally given up hope he will rebound with a late masterpiece. I prefer his mid-career books (a bit vague, let's say the end of his Czech period, so L'insoutenable légéreté de l'être and the two novels before that) to his earliest ones, though I suspect it could be due to a translation problem (he's another the translator embellished a lot, ruining his style). I didn't buy the translations he revised himself after he moved to France but I've heard his early novels feel a bit more like the middle career ones now, the evolution of his style more natural and logical.

2. I agree with you on Hemingway completely. The man is unreadable. Even as an American with a love of American culture, I think that America has produced fewer "great writers" than it could have. I usually attribute it to our peace and prosperity.


Possibly. It's hard to pinpoint, but it's not just the US. Only a few of our writers are recognized internationally, and Anglo-Canadians ones the same (Richler and a handful of others like Nancy Huston who writes all her books in both languages). I've heard said half in jest many potential great writers likely just have been too busy building up these new countries to write a line in their life, especially in the centuries European literature truly flourished.

Do you think I would like Zola's Rougon-Macquart? I'm the sort of person who would buy the whole thing at once (also because of shipping costs from amazon.fr) but 5 Pléiade volumes at once is a lot of money to drop. Based on your comments on the books board, I am also interested in Vian.


The problem for you with Vian is that his truly great novels are spread between two La Pléiade volumes. You can't miss L'Écume des Jours or L'Autumne à Pékin if you're to read Vian, but they're with his youth novels, minor works that are really interesting only to huge fans of Vian. Then, there are two of his fake American pulp novels, which are mostly interesting to those interested in the person of Vian and his biography (the scandal surrounding J'irai cracher sur vos tombes was perhaps the greatest tragedy of his life and destroyed his literary career in the end), but Vian was the first to say they had no literary value in his eyes (one was written in two weeks...). So there's like 200 really essential pages in the volume, not counting his novellas (some of which are true gems, others not) and his earliest screenplays.

The second volume has his two other essential novels, and the rest of the Sullivan novels - the second phase ones, written after the scandal when everyone knew Vian was really Sullivan, not his translator. Those are more in the Vian vein and unlike the other two that were mean to fool these were more facetious and they read a bit like pastiches of Flemming with disctinctly Vian fantasy touches. His later period novellas and screenplays are included.

This chronological division didn't bother me much (and is traditional for Pléiade), as Vian has been a writer who's followed me since my youth and there was no way I'd pass on his entrance in the collection (I'd rather been hoping for it for years...). It is a disappointement that his poetry, his songs and his plays weren't included, but I had all those in the paperback Complete Works edition already.

4. Joyce is usually irritating. The only reason I put him in the "kinda like, kinda not" category is because I really did like his Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man. I thought Ulysses was a failed experiment at best.


Same here. I tried Ulysses both in French and later in English and I just can't get into it.

As for Zola, I wouldn't recommend buying the Pléiade right away unless money is really, really no object to you. He has a much dryer (if elegant) style than the French writers you seem to like the most. He also has an angle on things, an strong agenda about the milieu he described you might say, that some people like and some really don't. I wouldn't recommend starting at the beginning of the cycle, but rather with one of his best known works (Germinal, for instance. The Folio edition usually uses the Pléiade foonotes and presentation) and judge if he's your cup of tea. In Zola's case, "cycle" is an extremely loose term anyway. The novels are only very loosely connected, can be read in any order, and are all stand-alones. Not every novel has the strength of those that became classics, obviously.

(as an aside, it makes me smile every time you call La Pléiade hardcovers, as Raymond Queneau introduced the collection in the beginning as upscale but affordable "paperbacks" (sic. The equivalent French term is Livre de poche) for book lovers on a budget who wished to start a proper library that would last but could not afford the bouquinistes and their antique editions, nor had the luxury of space to keep a full library. Books for students and artists and middle-class intellectuals. The books haven't change one bit, except the production costs skyrocketed over the decades. Nowadays they're kept under lock in bookstores - really not for the students anymore!

One excellent thing about them is that there's a good second-hand market for mint condition Pléiade volumes, and since the design hasn't changed... (they periodically redo the critical material, though) . I bought about 10 new over the years, and about the same number second-hand.

I was also not aware that Druon was being "elevated" by some the way you say. It sounds like he is really a Jordan-esque figure over there.


Oh no, not at all! There's no real Jordan-esque figure in France. The dividing line between great literature and popular literature is clearer.

It's just that Druon was a pedantic dinosaur with an extremely high opinion of himself, and a very high opinion of his works (all written many decades ago, he dried up early as a writer and became a public figure). He was the Perpetual Secretary of L'Académie Française to 2009, so we had to suffer his vocal opinions (especially here, he had very gratting and mysogynistic opinions about Québec). For him, French grammar is caught in amber, a ludicrous notion to anyone who know a bit the history of the language and how much it used to evolve rapidly and adapt itself. That used to be a strength of French, until the more conservative wing of the Académie in the 20th century started worshipping the past too much. E.g. Québécois expanded the vocabulary to introduce feminine forms for positions that were not traditionally filled by women. We say présidente and professeure, for example. It's perfectly in the normal line of evolution - whenever a position used to be filled by men and women both, a traditional masculine and feminine forms exist, and whenever men enter a new field, a masculine form is automatically created (it would be unthinkable to call a fashion designer "une couturière", the masculine couturier was immediately coined). According to Druon and the reactionary wing, the same shouldn't be done in modern times for "hysterical feminists", and he once called the OLF (which plays the regulatory/advisory portion of the mandate of the Académie here) barbarians for advising (and enforcing, in governemental communications) the practice. Which means whenever women fill traditional roles, they're called by a feminine title, but whenever they fill new roles (politics, academia and so on), they should be called by the masculine title only. Madame le député, Madame le professeur.

Anyway... let's say he's not terribly missed here (nor by many in France, as I understand. He was considered by many a pedantic dinosaur there too, and that since a long time.). The way he talked, Druon seemed to think he was a kind of new Hugo and that Les Rois Maudits stood with the 19th century classics. IMO, it's far more like the sort of novels a Dumas might have written had he been freed serial publishing (it's in many ways the same universe and devices Dumas used, the same distorted and exploitative vision of history and events) and I don't think he even matches Dumas for style (his writing is simpler). Les Rois Maudits is quality popular entertainment, but no more. I don't think Druon is such an exceptional writer. He's a good storyteller, though.

I bought Les Rois Maudits because they sound interesting (and I read a couple of chapters but promised to wait until I had finished Hugo).


I'm curious to see if you'll like it or not, and if strippig a Dumas-like writer of the irritating aspects of the feuilleton genre (repetitions, the too episodic aspects, the filling of space etc.) will be enough for you. Druon has attempted to create Dumas-like characters, with two of which he more or less succeeded, though they'll never become icons like Dumas's, IMO.


I really liked the books a lot as a kid (at the same age I was handled Dumas by dad, right after finishing LOTR), but I've read a lot of History since, and as I tried to re read Druon (at the same time I decided to re read Dumas) I found him mildly irritating and his vision of the French middle-ages simplistic, full of shortcuts and too melodramatic. I don't have as much time as I used to to read, so I gave up on the re read. He systematically picks the legends over the facts, very Dumas, without the excuse of having written this in the early and mid 19th century (Dumas had this opinion that he had to aim for the general idea of a period, rather than presents the facts. He was conscious that for many of his readers, his novels would be their only contact with History, and he had an agenda, a vision of Ancien Régime he meant to share). I'm not sure why it didn't irritate me with Dumas but does with Druon, perhaps because I can place Dumas and his time - his biases and all - in context, while from a contemporary writer I find the same thing leaning toward facility. I also don't like so much the fact he mixes well-done research (I mean, the world the books present is hardly wholly innacurate!) but very dubious choices when it comes to present some events and figures, preferring the false but more spectacular versions also systematically.

It's very entertaining though if you get past all these irritants (and if you're not too tired of poisoners and good old Templar maledictions and whatnot), and if you get to like the players, immersing. Writing-wise you could do worse. It's old fashioned and conventional, but not badly written at all. The major weakness of the series may be the lack of an underlying vision, something more than the story itself. The series remains immensely popular today (even more so after the second mini-series) - it's still a favourite vacation/beach book for many.
Reply to message
Can someone explain to me how Jordan is not a particularly good writer? - 21/02/2011 05:41:31 PM 3188 Views
I personally see it as more of RJ being a fantastic story teller, but not a well structured writer. - 21/02/2011 06:44:21 PM 1579 Views
Re: I personally see it as more of RJ being a fantastic story teller, but not a well structured - 22/02/2011 10:59:25 PM 1220 Views
What do you think about the Southern Gothic authors? - 23/02/2011 08:08:26 AM 1085 Views
Re: What do you think about the Southern Gothic authors? - 23/02/2011 10:51:57 AM 1180 Views
Oh, it really depends. - 23/02/2011 05:39:07 PM 941 Views
thanks, I'll have a look *NM* - 23/02/2011 05:40:50 PM 767 Views
For the same reason that most people think they have above average intelligence. - 21/02/2011 11:13:34 PM 1548 Views
Thank you. - 21/02/2011 11:43:08 PM 1288 Views
Well Said! - 22/02/2011 02:42:22 PM 1209 Views
I can take a shot at that, since nobody else seems willing to. - 22/02/2011 07:29:20 AM 1587 Views
Do you enjoy reading Robert Jordan's ... - 22/02/2011 04:31:28 PM 1263 Views
Not particularly. - 22/02/2011 10:22:00 PM 1368 Views
Agreed. - 22/02/2011 10:37:08 PM 1151 Views
As far as I'm concerned, the only way to gauge whether an author is good or not is ... - 22/02/2011 03:58:17 PM 1126 Views
Amen *NM* - 22/02/2011 04:32:50 PM 754 Views
Re: Can someone explain to me how Jordan is not a particularly good writer? - 22/02/2011 06:27:11 PM 1995 Views
Brain overload! This is really well thought out. - 23/02/2011 10:22:37 PM 1180 Views
thank you for the insight into the outside view lol - 24/02/2011 04:34:57 PM 1245 Views
I think DomA answered the question best, but the "do you like it" argument is weak. - 22/02/2011 10:32:51 PM 1361 Views
Re: I think DomA answered the question best, but the "do you like it" argument is weak. - 22/02/2011 11:16:24 PM 1316 Views
The Necronomicon isn't actually a book, you know. *NM* - 22/02/2011 11:28:29 PM 675 Views
There are nine, actually... - 23/02/2011 12:04:55 AM 1363 Views
I hope I am misunderstanding you. - 23/02/2011 10:57:47 PM 1065 Views
Re: I hope I am misunderstanding you. - 24/02/2011 10:41:09 AM 1211 Views
If the core of the story is all that matters, why read a book - 24/02/2011 10:32:01 PM 1150 Views
Re: If the core of the story is all that matters, why read a book - 24/02/2011 11:23:42 PM 989 Views
So wait, style is good? - 25/02/2011 12:32:07 AM 1400 Views
Re: So wait, style is good? - 25/02/2011 08:53:55 AM 1039 Views
I'm not trolling - 25/02/2011 11:57:18 PM 1077 Views
That depends... - 23/02/2011 03:00:35 AM 1285 Views
the "do you like it" is the most important criterion - 23/02/2011 10:45:17 PM 1152 Views
Re: the "do you like it" is the most important criterion - 24/02/2011 01:53:59 AM 1141 Views
Thumbs up - IMHO, all discussion can end here - 28/02/2011 05:45:34 PM 1281 Views
Not for quality of writing. - 24/02/2011 05:17:52 PM 1086 Views
Those who can do, the rest are critics. *NM* - 24/02/2011 07:55:50 PM 741 Views
I object, sir! People don't read WoT for the way it's told? - 24/02/2011 12:58:58 AM 1196 Views
If you don't mind me asking... - 24/02/2011 01:05:12 AM 973 Views
Re: If you don't mind me asking... - 24/02/2011 02:19:17 AM 1087 Views
I still don't get it. - 24/02/2011 08:27:50 AM 989 Views
Re: If you don't mind me asking... - 24/02/2011 11:29:14 PM 1035 Views
I don't mind that you ask, but I'm not going to engage in a defense of literature. - 24/02/2011 05:35:27 PM 971 Views
Re: I don't mind that you ask, but I'm not going to engage in a defense of literature. - 24/02/2011 11:26:55 PM 1135 Views
I'm sure you have a wonderful job awaiting in fast food service. - 25/02/2011 01:57:15 AM 1188 Views
Re: I'm sure you have a wonderful job awaiting in fast food service. - 25/02/2011 08:56:06 AM 1097 Views
Jack @$$ snobbery at its best. WOW *NM* - 28/02/2011 05:48:43 PM 769 Views
... - 25/02/2011 01:07:22 AM 1047 Views
Maybe you should have used better prose? - 25/02/2011 01:23:17 AM 896 Views
It is not a serious question. - 25/02/2011 01:53:59 AM 1032 Views
How so? - 25/02/2011 02:59:05 AM 1175 Views
I have every right to use that tone. - 25/02/2011 03:08:14 PM 1114 Views
Is that so? - 25/02/2011 05:58:31 AM 1107 Views
I'm not fixated with Jordan. - 25/02/2011 03:13:56 PM 1128 Views
Then why do you keep trying to qualify the passage in relation to him? - 25/02/2011 06:29:31 PM 1169 Views
You're conflating two things. - 25/02/2011 07:32:59 PM 1144 Views
All right, now we're getting somewhere. - 26/02/2011 12:40:57 AM 1066 Views
you raise very good questions... *NM* - 26/02/2011 09:21:13 AM 674 Views
Okay, here you go. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt as to your sincerity. - 26/02/2011 03:20:44 PM 897 Views
Thank you, and I agree with all your explanations. *NM* - 26/02/2011 07:28:09 PM 687 Views
Glad to hear that. - 27/02/2011 03:42:33 AM 985 Views
No problem, these things happen on the internet. *NM* - 27/02/2011 04:36:57 AM 746 Views
No, it is a serious question, just one that can never be seriously answered. - 25/02/2011 03:28:48 PM 1056 Views
Your opinion isn't as valid as anyone else's if that's your opinion. - 25/02/2011 04:44:57 PM 1215 Views
Jack @$$ snobbery at its best. WOW *NM* - 28/02/2011 05:51:48 PM 594 Views
double post. oh my! *NM* - 28/02/2011 05:52:17 PM 633 Views
Just makes you right twice *NM* - 28/02/2011 09:42:19 PM 724 Views
Re: ... - 25/02/2011 08:59:37 AM 1085 Views
And part 2, on the analysis of writing. - 24/02/2011 01:16:20 AM 1109 Views
Florid desciption is usually not a good thing. - 24/02/2011 05:30:30 PM 1062 Views
Re: I find this whole thing elitist and more than a bit silly - 23/02/2011 06:45:05 AM 1198 Views
Why do you think mind-expanding literature is restricted to the classics? - 23/02/2011 08:03:59 AM 1030 Views
Re: Why do you think mind-expanding literature is restricted to the classics? - 23/02/2011 09:25:10 AM 1204 Views
Of course people read for pleasure. - 23/02/2011 09:04:24 PM 995 Views
Ok... - 24/02/2011 08:59:27 AM 1030 Views
"Yeah well, that's, like, just your opinion, man." Good argument. - 24/02/2011 03:43:24 PM 1106 Views
*NM* - 24/02/2011 05:37:02 PM 632 Views
I find your above average tastes and intelligence uninspiring. - 24/02/2011 08:42:03 PM 970 Views
I'm curious to hear who Tom and DomA consider a "very good writer"? - 24/02/2011 05:49:13 PM 1120 Views
Among living writers? - 24/02/2011 08:16:08 PM 1155 Views
No Rushdie? - 24/02/2011 09:22:46 PM 1047 Views
I was considering mentioning Rushdie. - 24/02/2011 09:32:20 PM 995 Views
My list would be similar... - 26/02/2011 07:24:11 AM 1258 Views
That was a very good list. - 26/02/2011 03:07:31 PM 1091 Views
Re: That was a very good list. - 27/02/2011 04:51:43 AM 1147 Views
Once I finish Hugo I'm probably going to read Druon. - 27/02/2011 02:30:03 PM 937 Views
Oh, and another question - 27/02/2011 05:28:47 PM 940 Views
Re: Oh, and another question - 01/03/2011 03:42:02 AM 1094 Views
One final question, if you'll indulge me... - 01/03/2011 06:43:23 PM 989 Views
Well, until I have time to return to your previous post but... - 01/03/2011 07:45:13 PM 1128 Views
I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great' - 27/02/2011 11:14:30 AM 1200 Views
You like Solzhenitsyn but not other Russian writers? - 27/02/2011 02:43:46 PM 1116 Views
Re: You like Solzhenitsyn but not other Russian writers? - 02/03/2011 11:47:19 PM 1205 Views
Re: I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great' - 28/02/2011 11:51:49 PM 1226 Views
Re: I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great' - 03/03/2011 12:01:30 AM 1133 Views
Link to DomA Post from up above: - 03/03/2011 12:20:11 AM 1367 Views
He's a great storyteller, but his prose is somewhat uninspiring. *NM* - 27/02/2011 07:28:00 PM 760 Views

Reply to Message