In general, however, turning to your other points:
I would say that I don't agree with your categorization completely. I'd say aesthetics and style are nearly the same thing, depending on which definitions you're using. I'd say maybe "style" means the "author's style" while "aesthetics" means "what the reader appreciates."
I don't think aesthetics can be boiled down to florid descriptions - and, I know Nabakov is highly-regarded, much more so than RJ, but that is a truly florid description.
If you're going to use aesthetics to refer solely to the author, you'd look at Merriam-Webster, definition 2:
a particular theory or conception of beauty or art : a particular taste for or approach to what is pleasing to the senses and especially sight
A "real" artist - it's easiest to consider visual ones - has a theory: the slightly blurred and distancing effect of Impressionism, the odd juxtapositions of surrealism. Or, looking at books, the focus on artifice, as well as opulence and decay, in Decadence. These can work along with, or form the entirety of, the *thesis* of a particular work.
So when you use grotesque, like Toulouse-Lautrec, you make things nightmarish and garish and ugly. When you go with romantic or gothic aesthetics, you use the approach/theory of that style.
So this critique doesn't necessarily just "add right on" to what DomA was describing, I think.
RJ had a style - I only took it as the style for this series, not as he would've written something else. RJ's style certainly had a lot of repetition, and could really give the reader details that really weren't needed to build a scene. The "cream slashed with gold" comment that I read recently really was a succinct-but-serious highlight of where it becomes a problem.
Whether or not you like something does make a big difference. I don't like "Being John Malkovich," although I enjoyed some scenes. I admit that it has many special qualities and
If we want to look at things as "yeah we are clearly right about this," then you could look at numbers. If enough people say something is good, and there's some (honest) critical support, then it's good, right? But then you get into the Transformers movie - or that time I was on a date and I asked an actress what her favorite movie was and she said, "Independence Day."
So popular doesn't always signify quality as well. Since it becomes a giant opinion argument at that point, I can only say what I try to do: I put my measure into the appeal that something has to someone with well-developed tastes for the particular thing they're talking about.
Why? Because that's when you start to get thoughtful analysis along with emotional impact.
So when a person who knows classic rock inside-out says, "Lenny Kravitz is stealing his riffs all over the place, especially from Zep," I have some analysis to think about. And this person might like individual songs - might even say "ah, this is an original composition and it's stylistically and technically fine."
I may agree or disagree, but I trust their background, and their comments indicate that there's more of their brain going on that when someone sees Transformers 2 and says, "the explosions were sweet, the jokes were awesome, and Megan Fox is freaking hot!"
"BJM" was technically fantastic and had interesting ideas and I can see why it's popular. But I think that the writers pulled some very cheap tricks there and I don'object to the movie on those grounds in a pretty absolute way. I'm happy for the people who didn't notice the problems and just had a good time.
Personally, I can see that "Lolita" quote as possibly being a sweet read - whether or not I knew Russian language or history. I don't especially like it, but I can imagine how or why it would work in its own context.
I can take points away from RJ by saying that his choices - and their resulting effects - were gradually less impressive, or perhaps diminished - as the series went on.
It's the difference between looking at a work of art and saying "I get what X artist (RJ/Cuse and Lindelhof/Lars von Trier) was trying to do - nice attempt, but it didn't quite work" and saying "Entourage is like basically 1 or maybe 2 different episodes, but they've run 20 of them and they don't really have anything to say."
I at least try to give a decent amount of thought to people who can do the first and provide some critique. Then I decide if I disagree with them or not. Note that I'm not accusing you of giving this a shallow analysis, just saying the method that I use.
It's a weird topic because I find that music tastes can be extremely hard to translate/trust, while movie tastes are often easier to approach. Books, too, I think.
Try John Banville's "Athena" - there's great elements to it, but I didn't really think it worked. Try also, Armistead Maupin's "Tales of the City" - a great first novel that the author just rehashed 3+ times over.
I would say that I don't agree with your categorization completely. I'd say aesthetics and style are nearly the same thing, depending on which definitions you're using. I'd say maybe "style" means the "author's style" while "aesthetics" means "what the reader appreciates."
I don't think aesthetics can be boiled down to florid descriptions - and, I know Nabakov is highly-regarded, much more so than RJ, but that is a truly florid description.
If you're going to use aesthetics to refer solely to the author, you'd look at Merriam-Webster, definition 2:
a particular theory or conception of beauty or art : a particular taste for or approach to what is pleasing to the senses and especially sight
A "real" artist - it's easiest to consider visual ones - has a theory: the slightly blurred and distancing effect of Impressionism, the odd juxtapositions of surrealism. Or, looking at books, the focus on artifice, as well as opulence and decay, in Decadence. These can work along with, or form the entirety of, the *thesis* of a particular work.
So when you use grotesque, like Toulouse-Lautrec, you make things nightmarish and garish and ugly. When you go with romantic or gothic aesthetics, you use the approach/theory of that style.
So this critique doesn't necessarily just "add right on" to what DomA was describing, I think.
RJ had a style - I only took it as the style for this series, not as he would've written something else. RJ's style certainly had a lot of repetition, and could really give the reader details that really weren't needed to build a scene. The "cream slashed with gold" comment that I read recently really was a succinct-but-serious highlight of where it becomes a problem.
Whether or not you like something does make a big difference. I don't like "Being John Malkovich," although I enjoyed some scenes. I admit that it has many special qualities and
If we want to look at things as "yeah we are clearly right about this," then you could look at numbers. If enough people say something is good, and there's some (honest) critical support, then it's good, right? But then you get into the Transformers movie - or that time I was on a date and I asked an actress what her favorite movie was and she said, "Independence Day."
So popular doesn't always signify quality as well. Since it becomes a giant opinion argument at that point, I can only say what I try to do: I put my measure into the appeal that something has to someone with well-developed tastes for the particular thing they're talking about.
Why? Because that's when you start to get thoughtful analysis along with emotional impact.
So when a person who knows classic rock inside-out says, "Lenny Kravitz is stealing his riffs all over the place, especially from Zep," I have some analysis to think about. And this person might like individual songs - might even say "ah, this is an original composition and it's stylistically and technically fine."
I may agree or disagree, but I trust their background, and their comments indicate that there's more of their brain going on that when someone sees Transformers 2 and says, "the explosions were sweet, the jokes were awesome, and Megan Fox is freaking hot!"
"BJM" was technically fantastic and had interesting ideas and I can see why it's popular. But I think that the writers pulled some very cheap tricks there and I don'object to the movie on those grounds in a pretty absolute way. I'm happy for the people who didn't notice the problems and just had a good time.
Personally, I can see that "Lolita" quote as possibly being a sweet read - whether or not I knew Russian language or history. I don't especially like it, but I can imagine how or why it would work in its own context.
I can take points away from RJ by saying that his choices - and their resulting effects - were gradually less impressive, or perhaps diminished - as the series went on.
It's the difference between looking at a work of art and saying "I get what X artist (RJ/Cuse and Lindelhof/Lars von Trier) was trying to do - nice attempt, but it didn't quite work" and saying "Entourage is like basically 1 or maybe 2 different episodes, but they've run 20 of them and they don't really have anything to say."
I at least try to give a decent amount of thought to people who can do the first and provide some critique. Then I decide if I disagree with them or not. Note that I'm not accusing you of giving this a shallow analysis, just saying the method that I use.
It's a weird topic because I find that music tastes can be extremely hard to translate/trust, while movie tastes are often easier to approach. Books, too, I think.
Try John Banville's "Athena" - there's great elements to it, but I didn't really think it worked. Try also, Armistead Maupin's "Tales of the City" - a great first novel that the author just rehashed 3+ times over.
Can someone explain to me how Jordan is not a particularly good writer?
21/02/2011 05:41:31 PM
- 3205 Views
I personally see it as more of RJ being a fantastic story teller, but not a well structured writer.
21/02/2011 06:44:21 PM
- 1597 Views
Re: I personally see it as more of RJ being a fantastic story teller, but not a well structured
22/02/2011 10:59:25 PM
- 1234 Views
What do you think about the Southern Gothic authors?
23/02/2011 08:08:26 AM
- 1101 Views
Re: What do you think about the Southern Gothic authors?
23/02/2011 10:51:57 AM
- 1198 Views
For the same reason that most people think they have above average intelligence.
21/02/2011 11:13:34 PM
- 1561 Views
Re: For the same reason that most people think they have above average intelligence. *NM*
22/02/2011 02:39:20 PM
- 869 Views
Re: For the same reason that most people think they have above average intelligence.
22/02/2011 02:41:37 PM
- 1036 Views
That's possibly the best explanation of literary criticism I've ever seen.
23/02/2011 02:47:12 AM
- 1149 Views
I can take a shot at that, since nobody else seems willing to.
22/02/2011 07:29:20 AM
- 1606 Views
Re: I can take a shot at that, since nobody else seems willing to.
22/02/2011 11:23:38 PM
- 1258 Views
That has very little to do with anything unless you can provide a real-world analogy to a channeler.
22/02/2011 11:30:52 PM
- 1166 Views
Re: That has very little to do with anything unless you can provide a real-world analogy to a
23/02/2011 12:02:24 AM
- 1211 Views
As far as I'm concerned, the only way to gauge whether an author is good or not is ...
22/02/2011 03:58:17 PM
- 1145 Views
Re: Can someone explain to me how Jordan is not a particularly good writer?
22/02/2011 06:27:11 PM
- 2014 Views
I think it has more to do with limitations imposed by how the story was organized and edited.
22/02/2011 07:50:18 PM
- 1514 Views
That's interesting, and I have a weird agree/disagree here; also, that Adam Roberts sucks
23/02/2011 02:15:12 AM
- 1266 Views
Re: That's interesting, and I have a weird agree/disagree here; also, that Adam Roberts sucks
23/02/2011 11:02:14 AM
- 1237 Views
adam roberts reviews
23/02/2011 03:53:49 AM
- 1235 Views
And I suspect those who prefer the BS books are those who largely read WoT for the story. *NM*
23/02/2011 08:06:16 AM
- 725 Views
Oh GAWD!... not another pointer to Robert Adam's incoherant muckraking
24/02/2011 07:47:35 PM
- 1087 Views
I think DomA answered the question best, but the "do you like it" argument is weak.
22/02/2011 10:32:51 PM
- 1380 Views
Re: I think DomA answered the question best, but the "do you like it" argument is weak.
22/02/2011 11:16:24 PM
- 1333 Views
The Necronomicon isn't actually a book, you know. *NM*
22/02/2011 11:28:29 PM
- 683 Views
There are nine, actually...
23/02/2011 12:04:55 AM
- 1383 Views
Lovecraft's Necronomicon was fictitious. If you want to count fanfiction, fine. *NM*
23/02/2011 12:38:07 AM
- 745 Views
Based on how poorly worded that response was, I'm not sure what to think of it. *NM*
23/02/2011 12:13:00 AM
- 729 Views
I hope I am misunderstanding you.
23/02/2011 10:57:47 PM
- 1080 Views
Re: I hope I am misunderstanding you.
24/02/2011 10:41:09 AM
- 1228 Views
If the core of the story is all that matters, why read a book
24/02/2011 10:32:01 PM
- 1168 Views
Re: If the core of the story is all that matters, why read a book
24/02/2011 11:23:42 PM
- 1008 Views
So wait, style is good?
25/02/2011 12:32:07 AM
- 1413 Views
That depends...
23/02/2011 03:00:35 AM
- 1302 Views
I didn't say aesthetics was the primary criterion. I named three criteria.
23/02/2011 05:39:03 AM
- 1173 Views
the "do you like it" is the most important criterion
23/02/2011 10:45:17 PM
- 1166 Views
If you don't mind me asking...
24/02/2011 01:05:12 AM
- 992 Views
I don't mind that you ask, but I'm not going to engage in a defense of literature.
24/02/2011 05:35:27 PM
- 990 Views
Re: I don't mind that you ask, but I'm not going to engage in a defense of literature.
24/02/2011 11:26:55 PM
- 1153 Views
I'm sure you have a wonderful job awaiting in fast food service.
25/02/2011 01:57:15 AM
- 1203 Views
Re: I'm sure you have a wonderful job awaiting in fast food service.
25/02/2011 08:56:06 AM
- 1116 Views
...
25/02/2011 01:07:22 AM
- 1067 Views
It is not a serious question.
25/02/2011 01:53:59 AM
- 1050 Views
Is that so?
25/02/2011 05:58:31 AM
- 1125 Views
I'm not fixated with Jordan.
25/02/2011 03:13:56 PM
- 1151 Views
Then why do you keep trying to qualify the passage in relation to him?
25/02/2011 06:29:31 PM
- 1191 Views
You're conflating two things.
25/02/2011 07:32:59 PM
- 1163 Views
All right, now we're getting somewhere.
26/02/2011 12:40:57 AM
- 1088 Views
Okay, here you go. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt as to your sincerity.
26/02/2011 03:20:44 PM
- 917 Views
Thank you, and I agree with all your explanations. *NM*
26/02/2011 07:28:09 PM
- 698 Views
No, it is a serious question, just one that can never be seriously answered.
25/02/2011 03:28:48 PM
- 1075 Views
Your opinion isn't as valid as anyone else's if that's your opinion.
25/02/2011 04:44:57 PM
- 1238 Views
Re: Your opinion isn't as valid as anyone else's if that's your opinion.
25/02/2011 06:05:18 PM
- 1646 Views
I'm not wasting my time proving something to an internet moron and troll like you.
25/02/2011 07:36:19 PM
- 997 Views
Ah yes, the wonderful "dissmiss the person who disagrees with me by insulting him tactic"
28/02/2011 02:30:35 PM
- 1008 Views
Re: Your opinion isn't as valid as anyone else's if that's your opinion.
26/02/2011 11:06:26 AM
- 1049 Views
And part 2, on the analysis of writing.
24/02/2011 01:16:20 AM
- 1124 Views
Re: I find this whole thing elitist and more than a bit silly
23/02/2011 06:45:05 AM
- 1215 Views
Why do you think mind-expanding literature is restricted to the classics?
23/02/2011 08:03:59 AM
- 1051 Views
Re: Why do you think mind-expanding literature is restricted to the classics?
23/02/2011 09:25:10 AM
- 1225 Views
Of course people read for pleasure.
23/02/2011 09:04:24 PM
- 1010 Views
Ok...
24/02/2011 08:59:27 AM
- 1044 Views
"Yeah well, that's, like, just your opinion, man." Good argument.
24/02/2011 03:43:24 PM
- 1120 Views
I'm curious to hear who Tom and DomA consider a "very good writer"?
24/02/2011 05:49:13 PM
- 1134 Views
Among living writers?
24/02/2011 08:16:08 PM
- 1172 Views
My list would be similar...
26/02/2011 07:24:11 AM
- 1279 Views
That was a very good list.
26/02/2011 03:07:31 PM
- 1116 Views
Re: That was a very good list.
27/02/2011 04:51:43 AM
- 1162 Views
Oh, and another question
27/02/2011 05:28:47 PM
- 960 Views
Re: Oh, and another question
01/03/2011 03:42:02 AM
- 1118 Views
I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great'
27/02/2011 11:14:30 AM
- 1214 Views
Re: I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great'
28/02/2011 11:51:49 PM
- 1241 Views
Re: I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great'
03/03/2011 12:01:30 AM
- 1151 Views
Re: I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great'
03/03/2011 02:17:06 PM
- 1100 Views
He's a great storyteller, but his prose is somewhat uninspiring. *NM*
27/02/2011 07:28:00 PM
- 771 Views