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I didn't say aesthetics was the primary criterion. I named three criteria. Tom Send a noteboard - 23/02/2011 05:39:03 AM
Style, aesthetics and ideas. It's clear that Jordan isn't meaningful literature, though, so I did mention that books that are entertainment don't really need a big idea.

The problem I have with Jordan is that it's not a joy to read it for its own sake. Aesthetically and stylistically it's a train wreck. You read it for one reason, and one reason only - the story. The problem that I then have with Jordan is that the story was good for the first six books and then just got bogged down.

You are being extremely charitable when you say that he had a grand experiment that he poorly executed. I think he was like most other writers in the genre - he had a good idea that he thought he could cash in on. He knew he needed a big climactic finish at the end of each book but at a certain point he had thrown on so much unnecessary detail that he couldn't get the pieces in the right spot, and so for book after book he just kept fiddling with things but not moving it anywhere because he knew each new piece of crap he turned out would still sell. He wanted to finish the series, of course, but he was content to release sub-par work (even for him) because he was thinking about paying his bills. I don't blame him - every author without another job has an eye to the profit angle (Dumas certainly did, to take your example).

I just don't think that he had the grand vision. He was going to write a trilogy, and it just started expanding, and at a certain point it expanded beyond his ability to generate thrilling conclusions to each book.

As for this forum, I don't even want to think about how many websites there are out there for the Twilight series. Having a forum isn't an indication of writing talent in the least. I'm also sure Dan Brown has some fansites out there (and a fair number of them probably believe that he's publishing facts as fiction to avoid being murdered by the Federal Reserve).

I've bashed WoT a bit more than it perhaps deserves at times, but I generally agree with your assessment, with the caveats listed here.

Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.

ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius

Ummaka qinnassa nīk!

*MySmiley*
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Can someone explain to me how Jordan is not a particularly good writer? - 21/02/2011 05:41:31 PM 3189 Views
I personally see it as more of RJ being a fantastic story teller, but not a well structured writer. - 21/02/2011 06:44:21 PM 1580 Views
Re: I personally see it as more of RJ being a fantastic story teller, but not a well structured - 22/02/2011 10:59:25 PM 1221 Views
What do you think about the Southern Gothic authors? - 23/02/2011 08:08:26 AM 1086 Views
Re: What do you think about the Southern Gothic authors? - 23/02/2011 10:51:57 AM 1181 Views
Oh, it really depends. - 23/02/2011 05:39:07 PM 942 Views
thanks, I'll have a look *NM* - 23/02/2011 05:40:50 PM 768 Views
For the same reason that most people think they have above average intelligence. - 21/02/2011 11:13:34 PM 1549 Views
Thank you. - 21/02/2011 11:43:08 PM 1289 Views
Well Said! - 22/02/2011 02:42:22 PM 1210 Views
I can take a shot at that, since nobody else seems willing to. - 22/02/2011 07:29:20 AM 1588 Views
Do you enjoy reading Robert Jordan's ... - 22/02/2011 04:31:28 PM 1264 Views
Not particularly. - 22/02/2011 10:22:00 PM 1369 Views
Agreed. - 22/02/2011 10:37:08 PM 1152 Views
As far as I'm concerned, the only way to gauge whether an author is good or not is ... - 22/02/2011 03:58:17 PM 1127 Views
Amen *NM* - 22/02/2011 04:32:50 PM 755 Views
Re: Can someone explain to me how Jordan is not a particularly good writer? - 22/02/2011 06:27:11 PM 1996 Views
Brain overload! This is really well thought out. - 23/02/2011 10:22:37 PM 1181 Views
thank you for the insight into the outside view lol - 24/02/2011 04:34:57 PM 1246 Views
I think DomA answered the question best, but the "do you like it" argument is weak. - 22/02/2011 10:32:51 PM 1362 Views
Re: I think DomA answered the question best, but the "do you like it" argument is weak. - 22/02/2011 11:16:24 PM 1316 Views
The Necronomicon isn't actually a book, you know. *NM* - 22/02/2011 11:28:29 PM 676 Views
There are nine, actually... - 23/02/2011 12:04:55 AM 1364 Views
I hope I am misunderstanding you. - 23/02/2011 10:57:47 PM 1066 Views
Re: I hope I am misunderstanding you. - 24/02/2011 10:41:09 AM 1212 Views
If the core of the story is all that matters, why read a book - 24/02/2011 10:32:01 PM 1151 Views
Re: If the core of the story is all that matters, why read a book - 24/02/2011 11:23:42 PM 990 Views
So wait, style is good? - 25/02/2011 12:32:07 AM 1401 Views
Re: So wait, style is good? - 25/02/2011 08:53:55 AM 1040 Views
I'm not trolling - 25/02/2011 11:57:18 PM 1078 Views
That depends... - 23/02/2011 03:00:35 AM 1286 Views
I didn't say aesthetics was the primary criterion. I named three criteria. - 23/02/2011 05:39:03 AM 1160 Views
the "do you like it" is the most important criterion - 23/02/2011 10:45:17 PM 1153 Views
Re: the "do you like it" is the most important criterion - 24/02/2011 01:53:59 AM 1142 Views
Thumbs up - IMHO, all discussion can end here - 28/02/2011 05:45:34 PM 1282 Views
Not for quality of writing. - 24/02/2011 05:17:52 PM 1087 Views
Those who can do, the rest are critics. *NM* - 24/02/2011 07:55:50 PM 742 Views
I object, sir! People don't read WoT for the way it's told? - 24/02/2011 12:58:58 AM 1197 Views
If you don't mind me asking... - 24/02/2011 01:05:12 AM 974 Views
Re: If you don't mind me asking... - 24/02/2011 02:19:17 AM 1088 Views
I still don't get it. - 24/02/2011 08:27:50 AM 989 Views
Re: If you don't mind me asking... - 24/02/2011 11:29:14 PM 1036 Views
I don't mind that you ask, but I'm not going to engage in a defense of literature. - 24/02/2011 05:35:27 PM 972 Views
Re: I don't mind that you ask, but I'm not going to engage in a defense of literature. - 24/02/2011 11:26:55 PM 1136 Views
I'm sure you have a wonderful job awaiting in fast food service. - 25/02/2011 01:57:15 AM 1189 Views
Re: I'm sure you have a wonderful job awaiting in fast food service. - 25/02/2011 08:56:06 AM 1098 Views
Jack @$$ snobbery at its best. WOW *NM* - 28/02/2011 05:48:43 PM 769 Views
... - 25/02/2011 01:07:22 AM 1047 Views
Maybe you should have used better prose? - 25/02/2011 01:23:17 AM 897 Views
It is not a serious question. - 25/02/2011 01:53:59 AM 1033 Views
How so? - 25/02/2011 02:59:05 AM 1176 Views
I have every right to use that tone. - 25/02/2011 03:08:14 PM 1115 Views
Is that so? - 25/02/2011 05:58:31 AM 1108 Views
I'm not fixated with Jordan. - 25/02/2011 03:13:56 PM 1129 Views
Then why do you keep trying to qualify the passage in relation to him? - 25/02/2011 06:29:31 PM 1170 Views
You're conflating two things. - 25/02/2011 07:32:59 PM 1145 Views
All right, now we're getting somewhere. - 26/02/2011 12:40:57 AM 1067 Views
you raise very good questions... *NM* - 26/02/2011 09:21:13 AM 675 Views
Okay, here you go. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt as to your sincerity. - 26/02/2011 03:20:44 PM 899 Views
Thank you, and I agree with all your explanations. *NM* - 26/02/2011 07:28:09 PM 688 Views
Glad to hear that. - 27/02/2011 03:42:33 AM 986 Views
No problem, these things happen on the internet. *NM* - 27/02/2011 04:36:57 AM 747 Views
No, it is a serious question, just one that can never be seriously answered. - 25/02/2011 03:28:48 PM 1057 Views
Your opinion isn't as valid as anyone else's if that's your opinion. - 25/02/2011 04:44:57 PM 1216 Views
Jack @$$ snobbery at its best. WOW *NM* - 28/02/2011 05:51:48 PM 595 Views
double post. oh my! *NM* - 28/02/2011 05:52:17 PM 634 Views
Just makes you right twice *NM* - 28/02/2011 09:42:19 PM 725 Views
Re: ... - 25/02/2011 08:59:37 AM 1086 Views
And part 2, on the analysis of writing. - 24/02/2011 01:16:20 AM 1110 Views
Florid desciption is usually not a good thing. - 24/02/2011 05:30:30 PM 1063 Views
Re: I find this whole thing elitist and more than a bit silly - 23/02/2011 06:45:05 AM 1198 Views
Why do you think mind-expanding literature is restricted to the classics? - 23/02/2011 08:03:59 AM 1031 Views
Re: Why do you think mind-expanding literature is restricted to the classics? - 23/02/2011 09:25:10 AM 1205 Views
Of course people read for pleasure. - 23/02/2011 09:04:24 PM 995 Views
Ok... - 24/02/2011 08:59:27 AM 1031 Views
"Yeah well, that's, like, just your opinion, man." Good argument. - 24/02/2011 03:43:24 PM 1107 Views
*NM* - 24/02/2011 05:37:02 PM 633 Views
I find your above average tastes and intelligence uninspiring. - 24/02/2011 08:42:03 PM 971 Views
I'm curious to hear who Tom and DomA consider a "very good writer"? - 24/02/2011 05:49:13 PM 1121 Views
Among living writers? - 24/02/2011 08:16:08 PM 1156 Views
No Rushdie? - 24/02/2011 09:22:46 PM 1048 Views
I was considering mentioning Rushdie. - 24/02/2011 09:32:20 PM 996 Views
My list would be similar... - 26/02/2011 07:24:11 AM 1258 Views
That was a very good list. - 26/02/2011 03:07:31 PM 1092 Views
Re: That was a very good list. - 27/02/2011 04:51:43 AM 1147 Views
Once I finish Hugo I'm probably going to read Druon. - 27/02/2011 02:30:03 PM 938 Views
Oh, and another question - 27/02/2011 05:28:47 PM 941 Views
Re: Oh, and another question - 01/03/2011 03:42:02 AM 1094 Views
One final question, if you'll indulge me... - 01/03/2011 06:43:23 PM 989 Views
Well, until I have time to return to your previous post but... - 01/03/2011 07:45:13 PM 1129 Views
I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great' - 27/02/2011 11:14:30 AM 1201 Views
You like Solzhenitsyn but not other Russian writers? - 27/02/2011 02:43:46 PM 1117 Views
Re: You like Solzhenitsyn but not other Russian writers? - 02/03/2011 11:47:19 PM 1206 Views
Re: I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great' - 28/02/2011 11:51:49 PM 1227 Views
Re: I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great' - 03/03/2011 12:01:30 AM 1134 Views
Link to DomA Post from up above: - 03/03/2011 12:20:11 AM 1367 Views
He's a great storyteller, but his prose is somewhat uninspiring. *NM* - 27/02/2011 07:28:00 PM 760 Views

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