I think DomA answered the question best, but the "do you like it" argument is weak.
Tom Send a noteboard - 22/02/2011 10:32:51 PM
I want to address that.
"Do you like it?" is not a way of determining if someone is a good writer. It's a way of determining if someone tells an interesting story. I like reading Dan Brown books but I don't think anyone would even try to say he's a good writer. He uses cheap cliffhanger devices to keep you turning the pages. His characters are as deep as a puddle of spilled water and his descriptions are awful, like they've been lifted from the most cliché Harlequin romance novel.
Dan Brown is, in short, something like a car crash. You know it's terrible but the story is fun and so you can't help but read. He's not a good writer, though.
Being a "good writer" typically means several things:
1. Style. A good author chooses his words well, doesn't waste the reader's time and avoids repetition of stock phrases.
2. Aesthetics. A good author has descriptions that paint beautiful pictures. This isn't limited to traditional description, either. DomA mentioned Flaubert; I would add someone like Nabokov. Consider the beginning of Lolita:
Lolita, light of my life, fire of my loins. My sin, my soul. Lo-lee-ta: the tip of the tongue taking a trip of three steps down the palate to tap, at three, on the teeth. Lo. Lee. Ta.
She was Lo, plain Lo, in the morning, standing four feet ten in one sock. She was Lola in slacks. She was Dolly at school. She was Dolores on the dotted line. But in my arms she was always Lolita.
3. Ideas. Books can be simply entertainment, but usually a good author will fuse entertainment with ideas - the "moral of the story" as the old saying goes. Part of being human is being mortal, knowing that we're going to die, and trying to make some sense out of life while we're here. When a book has a message, it resonates with people and they take that message and make it a part of their lives.
If we're going to look strictly at the genre of fantasy/sci-fi, then you can add "world building" as an element with many facets, where a good author will create a world that feels authentic by creating plausible histories, cultures, language fragments and a framework for why or how things like dragons or magic exist.
In the first three categories Jordan cannot be called a good writer. His style is very formulaic. The books are not written with aesthetics in mind. There are no big ideas.
On world-building, some people think Jordan came close. I see an uneven result, with a terrible "Old Tongue", a lot of countries that really sound the same and a history that is only partially plausible. However, given the absolutely atrocious efforts of others in this field, Jordan isn't so bad.
The story is fairly interesting and keeps people reading, but it's not the way it's told that people like. If someone else grabbed Jordan's story and told it in different words, people wouldn't be upset. To be specific, there are people who like Goodkind and/or Sanderson's continuation of the story at this very website.
"Do you like it?" is not a way of determining if someone is a good writer. It's a way of determining if someone tells an interesting story. I like reading Dan Brown books but I don't think anyone would even try to say he's a good writer. He uses cheap cliffhanger devices to keep you turning the pages. His characters are as deep as a puddle of spilled water and his descriptions are awful, like they've been lifted from the most cliché Harlequin romance novel.
Dan Brown is, in short, something like a car crash. You know it's terrible but the story is fun and so you can't help but read. He's not a good writer, though.
Being a "good writer" typically means several things:
1. Style. A good author chooses his words well, doesn't waste the reader's time and avoids repetition of stock phrases.
2. Aesthetics. A good author has descriptions that paint beautiful pictures. This isn't limited to traditional description, either. DomA mentioned Flaubert; I would add someone like Nabokov. Consider the beginning of Lolita:
Lolita, light of my life, fire of my loins. My sin, my soul. Lo-lee-ta: the tip of the tongue taking a trip of three steps down the palate to tap, at three, on the teeth. Lo. Lee. Ta.
She was Lo, plain Lo, in the morning, standing four feet ten in one sock. She was Lola in slacks. She was Dolly at school. She was Dolores on the dotted line. But in my arms she was always Lolita.
3. Ideas. Books can be simply entertainment, but usually a good author will fuse entertainment with ideas - the "moral of the story" as the old saying goes. Part of being human is being mortal, knowing that we're going to die, and trying to make some sense out of life while we're here. When a book has a message, it resonates with people and they take that message and make it a part of their lives.
If we're going to look strictly at the genre of fantasy/sci-fi, then you can add "world building" as an element with many facets, where a good author will create a world that feels authentic by creating plausible histories, cultures, language fragments and a framework for why or how things like dragons or magic exist.
In the first three categories Jordan cannot be called a good writer. His style is very formulaic. The books are not written with aesthetics in mind. There are no big ideas.
On world-building, some people think Jordan came close. I see an uneven result, with a terrible "Old Tongue", a lot of countries that really sound the same and a history that is only partially plausible. However, given the absolutely atrocious efforts of others in this field, Jordan isn't so bad.
The story is fairly interesting and keeps people reading, but it's not the way it's told that people like. If someone else grabbed Jordan's story and told it in different words, people wouldn't be upset. To be specific, there are people who like Goodkind and/or Sanderson's continuation of the story at this very website.
Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.
ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius
Ummaka qinnassa nīk!
*MySmiley*
ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius
Ummaka qinnassa nīk!
*MySmiley*
Can someone explain to me how Jordan is not a particularly good writer?
21/02/2011 05:41:31 PM
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I personally see it as more of RJ being a fantastic story teller, but not a well structured writer.
21/02/2011 06:44:21 PM
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Re: I personally see it as more of RJ being a fantastic story teller, but not a well structured
22/02/2011 10:59:25 PM
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What do you think about the Southern Gothic authors?
23/02/2011 08:08:26 AM
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Re: What do you think about the Southern Gothic authors?
23/02/2011 10:51:57 AM
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For the same reason that most people think they have above average intelligence.
21/02/2011 11:13:34 PM
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Re: For the same reason that most people think they have above average intelligence. *NM*
22/02/2011 02:39:20 PM
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Re: For the same reason that most people think they have above average intelligence.
22/02/2011 02:41:37 PM
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That's possibly the best explanation of literary criticism I've ever seen.
23/02/2011 02:47:12 AM
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I can take a shot at that, since nobody else seems willing to.
22/02/2011 07:29:20 AM
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Re: I can take a shot at that, since nobody else seems willing to.
22/02/2011 11:23:38 PM
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That has very little to do with anything unless you can provide a real-world analogy to a channeler.
22/02/2011 11:30:52 PM
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Re: That has very little to do with anything unless you can provide a real-world analogy to a
23/02/2011 12:02:24 AM
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As far as I'm concerned, the only way to gauge whether an author is good or not is ...
22/02/2011 03:58:17 PM
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Re: Can someone explain to me how Jordan is not a particularly good writer?
22/02/2011 06:27:11 PM
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I think it has more to do with limitations imposed by how the story was organized and edited.
22/02/2011 07:50:18 PM
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That's interesting, and I have a weird agree/disagree here; also, that Adam Roberts sucks
23/02/2011 02:15:12 AM
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Re: That's interesting, and I have a weird agree/disagree here; also, that Adam Roberts sucks
23/02/2011 11:02:14 AM
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adam roberts reviews
23/02/2011 03:53:49 AM
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And I suspect those who prefer the BS books are those who largely read WoT for the story. *NM*
23/02/2011 08:06:16 AM
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Oh GAWD!... not another pointer to Robert Adam's incoherant muckraking
24/02/2011 07:47:35 PM
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I think DomA answered the question best, but the "do you like it" argument is weak.
22/02/2011 10:32:51 PM
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Re: I think DomA answered the question best, but the "do you like it" argument is weak.
22/02/2011 11:16:24 PM
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The Necronomicon isn't actually a book, you know. *NM*
22/02/2011 11:28:29 PM
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There are nine, actually...
23/02/2011 12:04:55 AM
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Lovecraft's Necronomicon was fictitious. If you want to count fanfiction, fine. *NM*
23/02/2011 12:38:07 AM
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Based on how poorly worded that response was, I'm not sure what to think of it. *NM*
23/02/2011 12:13:00 AM
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I hope I am misunderstanding you.
23/02/2011 10:57:47 PM
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Re: I hope I am misunderstanding you.
24/02/2011 10:41:09 AM
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If the core of the story is all that matters, why read a book
24/02/2011 10:32:01 PM
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Re: If the core of the story is all that matters, why read a book
24/02/2011 11:23:42 PM
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So wait, style is good?
25/02/2011 12:32:07 AM
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That depends...
23/02/2011 03:00:35 AM
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I didn't say aesthetics was the primary criterion. I named three criteria.
23/02/2011 05:39:03 AM
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the "do you like it" is the most important criterion
23/02/2011 10:45:17 PM
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If you don't mind me asking...
24/02/2011 01:05:12 AM
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I don't mind that you ask, but I'm not going to engage in a defense of literature.
24/02/2011 05:35:27 PM
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Re: I don't mind that you ask, but I'm not going to engage in a defense of literature.
24/02/2011 11:26:55 PM
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I'm sure you have a wonderful job awaiting in fast food service.
25/02/2011 01:57:15 AM
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Re: I'm sure you have a wonderful job awaiting in fast food service.
25/02/2011 08:56:06 AM
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...
25/02/2011 01:07:22 AM
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It is not a serious question.
25/02/2011 01:53:59 AM
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Is that so?
25/02/2011 05:58:31 AM
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I'm not fixated with Jordan.
25/02/2011 03:13:56 PM
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Then why do you keep trying to qualify the passage in relation to him?
25/02/2011 06:29:31 PM
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You're conflating two things.
25/02/2011 07:32:59 PM
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All right, now we're getting somewhere.
26/02/2011 12:40:57 AM
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Okay, here you go. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt as to your sincerity.
26/02/2011 03:20:44 PM
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Thank you, and I agree with all your explanations. *NM*
26/02/2011 07:28:09 PM
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No, it is a serious question, just one that can never be seriously answered.
25/02/2011 03:28:48 PM
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Your opinion isn't as valid as anyone else's if that's your opinion.
25/02/2011 04:44:57 PM
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Re: Your opinion isn't as valid as anyone else's if that's your opinion.
25/02/2011 06:05:18 PM
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I'm not wasting my time proving something to an internet moron and troll like you.
25/02/2011 07:36:19 PM
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Ah yes, the wonderful "dissmiss the person who disagrees with me by insulting him tactic"
28/02/2011 02:30:35 PM
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Re: Your opinion isn't as valid as anyone else's if that's your opinion.
26/02/2011 11:06:26 AM
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Re: I find this whole thing elitist and more than a bit silly
23/02/2011 06:45:05 AM
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Why do you think mind-expanding literature is restricted to the classics?
23/02/2011 08:03:59 AM
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Re: Why do you think mind-expanding literature is restricted to the classics?
23/02/2011 09:25:10 AM
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Of course people read for pleasure.
23/02/2011 09:04:24 PM
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Ok...
24/02/2011 08:59:27 AM
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"Yeah well, that's, like, just your opinion, man." Good argument.
24/02/2011 03:43:24 PM
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I'm curious to hear who Tom and DomA consider a "very good writer"?
24/02/2011 05:49:13 PM
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Among living writers?
24/02/2011 08:16:08 PM
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My list would be similar...
26/02/2011 07:24:11 AM
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That was a very good list.
26/02/2011 03:07:31 PM
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Re: That was a very good list.
27/02/2011 04:51:43 AM
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Oh, and another question
27/02/2011 05:28:47 PM
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Re: Oh, and another question
01/03/2011 03:42:02 AM
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I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great'
27/02/2011 11:14:30 AM
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Re: I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great'
28/02/2011 11:51:49 PM
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Re: I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great'
03/03/2011 12:01:30 AM
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Re: I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great'
03/03/2011 02:17:06 PM
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He's a great storyteller, but his prose is somewhat uninspiring. *NM*
27/02/2011 07:28:00 PM
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