Active Users:716 Time:24/12/2024 04:30:34 PM
The only implication I grasped is that you don't grasp math... fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 06/02/2011 06:21:12 PM
Before I address your points, let me state that I find it very telling that you ignore every bit of evidence I gave in my post. You don't address the Traveling issue, you don't address RJ's statement. You just reject the overall implications because they go against your list.


RJ says flatly that 37.5% of women fall below Dagian.

Yes...
That means 12.5% of women fall between Dagian and the average strength woman. Only 12.5%. Think what that means. THINK about it, don't just post a knee jerk response. Forget everything else we've debated about. Register the fact that only 12.5% of all channelers fall between Dagian and the average woman.

Ok...

What that means is that in relative terms, the average strength woman is not much stronger than Dagian.

YES! Thank you for finally figuring that out. But remember, this is the average strength woman. This is absolutely not the average strength Aes Sedai. The average strength Aes Sedai is not much above Daigian, because their highest strength in a thousand years has been Cadsuane. They have had absolutely no representation of the higher echelons.

Regarding the representative sample issue:

The only reason why the Aes Sedai would not be a representative sample of the ENTIRE channeling pool, would be if their selection methods somehow influenced the exclusion of a large part of one side of the spectrum.

Well, as it turns out, it does just that. And in a major way. 37.5% of the entire channeling population are automatically excluded from becoming Aes Sedai. Because they are too weak.

So immediately, more than a third of ALL CHANNELERS on the weak side of the average are DELIBERATELY excluded from the sample. This immediately skews the sample to the stronger side, moving the mean up past the average woman's strength.

You're ignoring another major factor. Age. The Aes Sedai don't want women over 18, usually. Another factor is running away. Another is women being put away because you're a coward (either for the Accepted or AS test, which is exclusively skewed to remove stronger women. Which is why women like Reanne were thrown out).

I doubt the latter two reasons lost the AS many strong women (though the mutterings about Nicola give some doubt to this), but the age factor certainly has. How many women who're weaker than Sharina, but definitely stronger than the likes of Moiraine have been turned away because they had the misfortune of not coming to the Tower before they were 18? The reaction to Sharina, where she's around only because Egwene is Amyrlin, shows pretty clearly how very skewed the whole AS process is.

Look at Nicola too. She's stronger than all the AS except Cadsuane, but she had no idea of going to the Tower.

The vast majority of women like Nicola and Sharina would fall around the average female strength, which is around the strength of Myrelle or Sheriam. If the Tower had included all of them, its average would undoubtedly go up. But it doesn't. Instead, it adds yet another constraint! You must want to become Aes Sedai to get the chance.

These 1000 women are barely .4% of the channeling population of the Westlands. And they already have three restrictions to entering their sample. Using them to prove anything is laughable.

On the upper side, there is no such restriction. In fact, stronger channelers, wherever they are found, are much more likely to become Aes Sedai and far more quickly too, than weaker channelers.

If they make the journey to Tar Valon.

If some stronger channelers are missed out, it is randomly done, and will be balanced out by all the middling strength and weak Aes Sedai level channelers that are ALSO missed out on a random basis.

This is completely different from the deliberate, blanket exclusion of the 37.5% of weakest channelers.

THAT is why so many of the novices are so weak, because most of the channelers who are still out there have fallen through the net because they form part of this 37.5% weaker than Dagian.

No. People weaker than Daigian are still allowed to be Novices.

Look at this simple fact. In the past 600 years, three women went to the Tower who were stronger than Moiraine.

In the past two years, when the Tower recruited more actively, it found Egwene, Elayne, Bode, Nynaeve, Nicola and Sharina! Six women stronger than Moiraine were found in two years, but only three came to the Tower in a 600 bloody years.

How could there possibly be enough women in the top 37.5% out there who have somehow been RANDOMLY missed in sufficient numbers to balance out the 37.5% weakest channelers who were DELIBERATELY excluded?

Age, interest in going to the Tower, cowardice. Those aren't random exclusions. Strength is not the only criterion on which the AS choose candidates.

The answer is, statistically it is impossible. For every incredibly strong channeler out there who has not been found due to random selection errors, there will be a matching weak woman who was NEVER FOUND either. I'm not talking about having been found and rejected due to being too weak. I'm talking about never found in the first place, just like the stronger woman who never was found.

YES! What you're missing is that strength is not the only selection criteria for Aes Sedai.

At the worst, you have to take RJ at his word, and assume that the Pattern had something to do with only weaker women entering the Tower. But you don't even need that rationalization! Just look what happened when the Tower in exile opened its Novice book:

Egwene says they got around a 1000 fresh Novices. She also says only about 200 will be strong enough to be Aes Sedai. Leaving aside the astounding fact that the Tower added a fifth of its population in half a year, this is still a skewed sample because 80% are too weak to be AS in this 1000. There should have been 625 women capable of being AS in a truly RANDOM sampling of 1000 women, but that isn't the case here.

There seems to be a clear correlation between being weak in the Power and wanting to be Aes Sedai, which is why women like Nynaeve and Sharina are such outliers to the system. Add to this the possibility that most sparkers are stronger channelers, and 1/4th of them die and the others are rejected as wilders, and you cannot help but conclude that the Aes Sedai are an absurdly skewed sample.

What's more, the Aes Sedai strength trend runs perfectly through the Aiel as well. Most Wise Ones who can channel are of Aes Sedai strength.

Not at all. A huge proportion of them are considered to be "strong" by Aes Sedai, but the Aiel themselves seem to disparage AS strength. A woman like Aviendha is considered an outlier among the Aiel. But among the AS, even women like Moiraine are "strong".

We hear of only 4 who are stronger than Moiraine, namely Therava, Tamela, Viendre and Someryn. And they include ALL their channelers, even the weakest ones, in their selection.

That's four we've heard of among 6000. How do you know there aren't more?

The point is, EVERY woman in the bottom 37.5% are automatically excluded from selection. But any woman who is found in the top 37.5% will be accepted with open arms.

IF she comes to the Tower and IF she isn't too old and IF she isn't a coward.

Meaning that the reason there are no Nynaeve's etc. is because they are so incredibly rare. There are very few of them to be found, as opposed to the many thousands of women in the bottom 37.5%.

Of course Nynaeve is rare! But there should still be around 10 more of her strength. But what about the likes of Moiraine? Is she also very rare. Is she, in fact, just 5 times more common than Nynaeve (since we have five of that strength to one of Nynaeve's)? Hardly.

There should be thousands of women of Moiraine's strength in the world. The Tower has just missed them all.

So how do you make this Bell Curve work? Only by accepting that Dagian is not far below the average strength woman at all (remember, only 12.5% of women fall between her and the average strength), and that the top 37.5% that balances out the bottom 37.5% is in fact represented by the bulk of Aes Sedai between say Verin's strength and Moiraine's strength.

RJ didn't say Aes Sedai follow a bell curve strength (impossible since they exclude 37.5% of the population anyway).

And if the levels between Verin and Moiraine are the top 37.5%, what are women like Cadsuane and Egwene? 0%?

Statistically the average Aes Sedai MUST be stronger than the average woman. You cannot get away from the upward skewing of the sample caused by the DELIBERATE exclusion of the bottom 37.5% of the ENTIRE POPULATION.

Yet, that is exactly what we see when we get a fresh 1000 women who want to be AS. There is a downward skewing.

But what if the Aes Sedai went recruiting like the Asha'man? Are you going to argue that the average Asha'man is as strong as Verin, when Verin seems to be among the weakest AS who can Travel, whereas a huge proportion of the Asha'man can Travel? Can you seriously argue this given what we know about men and women being equal?
Reply to message
Proof that Asmodean's effective One Power strength is greater than Moghedien's... - 03/02/2011 03:22:42 PM 2237 Views
Huh? - 03/02/2011 04:08:29 PM 1167 Views
Why do you deliberately misquote the text? - 03/02/2011 04:12:50 PM 1187 Views
You're deliberately being obtuse... as usual... - 03/02/2011 10:07:09 PM 1120 Views
Right. So Egwene can shield someone of Egwene's own strength, plus Elayne, AND weave a dozen flows.. - 03/02/2011 10:26:27 PM 1117 Views
- 03/02/2011 10:46:40 PM 994 Views
No. Egwene is very close to her full potential at the time... - 03/02/2011 11:44:20 PM 1093 Views
Bullshit... - 04/02/2011 12:39:42 AM 969 Views
Unbiased view... - 04/02/2011 01:46:40 AM 1088 Views
The WoT Board in a nutshell. *NM* - 04/02/2011 02:34:32 AM 536 Views
Yeah, thats unbiased... *NM* - 04/02/2011 05:23:17 PM 520 Views
Don't agree - 04/02/2011 08:30:02 AM 1105 Views
Fair comment, but my question then is: - 04/02/2011 11:26:25 AM 953 Views
I think the WO and Moiraine also Force Egwene as they know what's coming and need her - 04/02/2011 03:55:46 PM 968 Views
It is specifically stated that Egwene was forced by the rigours of the damane training... - 04/02/2011 05:15:20 PM 949 Views
Egwene has been continually forced... - 04/02/2011 06:02:08 PM 907 Views
The direct quotes contradict you... - 04/02/2011 06:23:03 PM 1002 Views
actually the quote substantiates that Egwene is only slightly stronger than Moiraine in TSR - 04/02/2011 07:51:10 PM 1017 Views
here ya go they were all Forced - 04/02/2011 07:59:40 PM 884 Views
Nope... - 04/02/2011 08:23:00 PM 970 Views
I think you may have misused the term - RJ meant 'effective' to mean something a bit different. - 03/02/2011 04:40:41 PM 1146 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. - 03/02/2011 05:30:15 PM 1061 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. - 03/02/2011 05:45:30 PM 1061 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. - 03/02/2011 06:31:34 PM 985 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. - 03/02/2011 07:06:50 PM 1007 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. - 03/02/2011 07:17:25 PM 1004 Views
We still don't know who is effectively stronger, and not sure if Asmo was equal to Rand by the end. - 03/02/2011 06:58:14 PM 822 Views
See my post above, I would say Asmo is Weaker than Moggy... *NM* - 03/02/2011 07:10:07 PM 542 Views
I'm not certain either way. I think it all depends on the terms being used. - 03/02/2011 07:22:01 PM 1040 Views
My impression of your view, in general, is that... - 03/02/2011 07:33:37 PM 914 Views
How... - 03/02/2011 10:15:34 PM 871 Views
If Nynaeve could do to Egwene and Elayne what Rand did to them, then I rest my case... - 03/02/2011 10:36:46 PM 1031 Views
Re: If Nynaeve could do to Egwene and Elayne what Rand did to them, then I rest my case... - 03/02/2011 10:50:57 PM 973 Views
Got you now... - 03/02/2011 11:32:49 PM 946 Views
You're clearly delusional... - 04/02/2011 12:59:26 AM 952 Views
You sound ridiculous - 04/02/2011 02:05:18 AM 951 Views
Re: You sound ridiculous - 04/02/2011 02:23:50 AM 1034 Views
Ok... - 04/02/2011 04:13:34 PM 897 Views
Elayne is not stronger than most AS at this point in the books - 04/02/2011 08:14:41 PM 932 Views
Re: How... - 04/02/2011 08:34:21 AM 1090 Views
They're very close now... - 04/02/2011 05:46:48 PM 1045 Views
That is unfortunately not true... - 04/02/2011 06:02:34 PM 1030 Views
It is... - 04/02/2011 06:05:05 PM 878 Views
Re: It is... - 04/02/2011 06:31:32 PM 1139 Views
Yup... - 04/02/2011 08:20:33 PM 886 Views
Semirhage hated Lanfear, but dared not act against her strength... - 04/02/2011 08:29:24 PM 1308 Views
yet Graendal showed a lot of respect for Semirhage ... even assumed she was the most - 04/02/2011 08:53:05 PM 973 Views
Graendal on Semirhage and Demandred... - 04/02/2011 09:23:50 PM 1240 Views
No - 04/02/2011 11:10:00 PM 1018 Views
CLAPS *NM* - 05/02/2011 05:15:21 AM 570 Views
We will just have to disagree on this one... - 05/02/2011 06:57:36 AM 908 Views
Indeed - 05/02/2011 07:38:10 AM 899 Views
I agree with you ... especially abou the perpective issue - 05/02/2011 03:00:58 PM 993 Views
I agree with you here - 04/02/2011 08:19:35 PM 907 Views
I don't think that's true.. - 04/02/2011 08:21:38 PM 843 Views
Considering that Asmodean and Rand were using a sa'angreal... - 04/02/2011 04:55:03 AM 1113 Views
I think this is a no brainer - 04/02/2011 08:22:00 AM 1057 Views
The nice fact which is proven is the magnitude of the gap between Moghedien and Semirhage... - 04/02/2011 11:32:00 AM 893 Views
Nynaeve could be at 90% or 80% when she faced Moghedien we have no way of measuring that - 04/02/2011 08:42:03 PM 892 Views
Disagree... - 04/02/2011 08:51:55 PM 967 Views
spin it all you like... I'm tired of this arument and your creative quoting. - 04/02/2011 08:56:14 PM 867 Views
The creative quoter is Fionwe, not me. You quote correctly, but your interpretations are way off... - 04/02/2011 09:05:43 PM 869 Views
Nynaeve has grown in strength, but she started nearly as strong as Moiraine! - 05/02/2011 05:35:05 AM 858 Views
Starting out at Moiraine's strength meant starting out at barely 30% of her full potential... - 05/02/2011 07:05:46 AM 912 Views
Nynaeve's strength - 05/02/2011 07:49:07 AM 963 Views
Agree, Egwene has never been as strong as Nynaeve at any stage. *NM* - 05/02/2011 03:03:25 PM 625 Views
I disagree that Moiraine is 30% of Nynaeve. Much closer to 50% of Nynaeve. EDIT - 05/02/2011 03:02:06 PM 1047 Views
Minor quibbles aside... - 05/02/2011 04:05:30 PM 1047 Views
Agreed, the exact numbers are arbitrary, I place Egwene a tad higher than you ... EDIT - 05/02/2011 04:30:00 PM 861 Views
Re: Agreed, the exact numbers are arbitrary, I place Egwene a tad higher than you ... EDIT - 05/02/2011 06:09:41 PM 994 Views
shrugs - 05/02/2011 06:46:02 PM 916 Views
Re: shrugs - 05/02/2011 08:03:37 PM 926 Views
I don't recall the Merise quote you are refering too and they have not been together in the series - 05/02/2011 09:20:56 PM 847 Views
I'm sorry, I meant the glossary entry... - 05/02/2011 10:29:46 PM 902 Views
Thanks for clarifying - 05/02/2011 11:12:19 PM 822 Views
Re: Thanks for clarifying - 06/02/2011 12:42:51 AM 881 Views
fair enough ... I can agree to Cadsuane and Bode both being 70 with Egwene and co at 80 *NM* - 06/02/2011 04:29:49 AM 488 Views
Cool! *NM* - 06/02/2011 04:18:52 PM 528 Views
Sorry, but here your entire Bell Curve goes up in smoke... - 06/02/2011 01:13:15 PM 838 Views
In fact, Moiraine is even STRONGER than I postulated in the above post... - 06/02/2011 01:22:11 PM 1231 Views
well... - 06/02/2011 02:11:02 PM 972 Views
Only a separate Bell Curve for the Age of Legends - when the average strength was higher - will work - 06/02/2011 03:29:49 PM 891 Views
Or, you know, the Aes Sedai aren't a representative sample... *NM* - 06/02/2011 04:19:22 PM 634 Views
I don't think Strength was higher in the AOL I think there were just more channelers - 06/02/2011 04:50:42 PM 943 Views
Yup. - 06/02/2011 05:30:54 PM 864 Views
Trivial - 06/02/2011 06:10:55 PM 884 Views
Uhhh... no... - 06/02/2011 04:18:19 PM 779 Views
Read these facts slowly, maybe you will grasp the implication then... - 06/02/2011 04:41:02 PM 936 Views
you are missing the fact that women like Sharina have no interest in the Tower - 06/02/2011 05:05:10 PM 963 Views
You equate random exclusions with the deliberate block exclusion of 37.5% weakest women... - 06/02/2011 05:41:47 PM 891 Views
wrong - 06/02/2011 06:08:20 PM 1002 Views
That is weak logic in the extreme... - 06/02/2011 06:16:46 PM 877 Views
what I'm saying is that a representative sample of the entire population - 06/02/2011 06:40:51 PM 925 Views
Yes. *NM* - 06/02/2011 06:47:59 PM 583 Views
Yes. *NM* - 06/02/2011 06:48:00 PM 507 Views
But you don't prove that the undiscovered women are stronger. They may well be weaker... - 06/02/2011 07:26:27 PM 771 Views
Amys is far from the strongest WO! - 06/02/2011 07:37:14 PM 1081 Views
Explain the 1000 women they found in Murandy then... - 06/02/2011 06:26:46 PM 873 Views
And a 1000 years ago... - 06/02/2011 06:33:29 PM 898 Views
The only implication I grasped is that you don't grasp math... - 06/02/2011 06:21:12 PM 991 Views
Circular reasoning... - 06/02/2011 07:03:53 PM 935 Views
Agreed. - 04/02/2011 04:32:05 PM 977 Views
Agree. *NM* - 04/02/2011 05:49:05 PM 594 Views
agreed *NM* - 04/02/2011 08:27:22 PM 609 Views

Reply to Message