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In fact, Moiraine is even STRONGER than I postulated in the above post... Shannow Send a noteboard - 06/02/2011 01:22:11 PM
Your arbitrary scale making Nynaeve only an 85 is laughable to begin with, and assuming the strongest AS are maybe in the 30s when the Author himself speaks of a bell curve distribution is even more astounding. The quotes and scales work just as easily and map better to a Bell Curve if you have

Lanfear: 100
Cyndane/Aliva:98
Graendal/Sharina: 97
Nynaeve: 96
Semirhage: 95
Mesaana:94
Moghedien: 88
Egwene: 80
Bode: 75
Cadsuane:65
Moiraine: 45
Verin: 30
Daigian:15
Morgase: 1

Suddenly you you start seeing a mass of women in the range between Cadsuane and say Verin (the bulk of where a Bell Curve average would fall) then a tapering off at the weaker end of the BC as you get down toward Daigian and even more so as you head down to Morgase.

on RJs scale that would make Level 21 Semirhage and up, Moghedien and Mesaana at level 20, Egwene 19, Bode 18, Cadsuane 17, Moiraine would probably be the lower end of 15 and Verin 12 and Daigian the bottom part of level 9, probably Daigian is about 2x Sorilea who would be like a level 4 or 5.

RJ also claimed that there were "several levels" of male strength above the 21 female levels ... so Rand on this scale would be something like a 125 ... give women a 25% dexterity bonus to compensate for effectiveness and suddenly you have Nynaeve at the same effective level as someone such as Sammael and Graendal effectively the same as a Demandred.

Egwene would be about 80% as effectively strong as Rand in ultimate Potential, but only have about 60% of his raw strength.

When she met up with him in TSR she was probably around a 48 (slightly stronger than Moiraine) to his 110 in Raw terms (he was already in FS male range) ... Elayne was significantly weaker than Egwene when this event took place so she was likely no more than a 25 ... and they were not linked ... it's no wonder they felt like kittens being manhandled and it would explain why Egwene thinks Nynaeve could come close to the effects she was seeing from Rand ... at this point Nynaeve was a mid-80s level and with a dexterity bonus would have been close to Rand on an Effective level, Further, it explains why Lanfear was MORE effective than Rand when he dueled her a book later. He still had room to grown and she was at maximum effective strength, thus he was dueling someone stronger ... and losing, based on that and a huge gap in skill.

It also explains how Egwene can be as strong as Melaine and Amys combined yet still have a significant gap up to Nynaeve and why Reanne would have considered Alivia "considerably" stronger than Nynaeve in POD ... Nynaeve at 90% of her potential would feel significantly weaker than Alivia to a woman who's total strength is around a 40 ... the difference between Alivia and Nynave would be something like 25% of Reanne's total strength, where from Alivia's view point Nynaeve is only about 10% weaker than her and still has room to grow.

And it illustrates the authors comment that Egwene was a step down from the Forsaken ... on your scale she's like 5 steps down.


On the Bell Curve, the average strength woman would be on 50. That puts the average strength woman at slightly above Moiraine's 45 on your list.

And because it's a Bell Curve, it means that the majority of women fall around Moiraine's level in strength, with AS MANY above her as below her.

So, to put it simply, there should be as many women between Moiraine and Moghedien as there are between Moiraine and Dagian.

In fact, because Moirane is slighly BELOW 50 on your list, there should be MORE women between Moiraine and Moghedien than there are between Moiraine and Dagian.

Only then would your version of the Bell Curve make sense.

Unfortunately, the observational evidence points to something far different. Among all the Aes Sedai, all the Aiel Wise Ones and all the Sea Folk,, we see that the VAST MAJORITY of women fall below Moiraine in strength. In fact, among ALL Aes Sedai, only a handful are as strong as Moiraine, and only the wondergirls and Cadsuane are stronger.

The picture that emerges is one of Moiraine being FAR stronger than the average woman, with about 90% or more of channelers falling BELOW her. This puts her at almost two standard deviations above the mean.

Therefore, if you want to formulate a true Bell Curve, then 50 should be around the strength of the average Aes Sedai, with Moiraine being a 75 or more. Meaning that Moiraine is 75% as strong as Lanfear.

That demonstrates quite clearly the absurdity of trying to fit the observed channeling strength distribution into a normal Bell Curve.




Because many women are excluded from being Aes Sedai because they are TOO weak, but none are excluded because they are too STRONG, logic dictates that the average woman is WEAKER than the average Aes Sedai, since 37.5% of women fall below Dagian in strength. If you add that 37.5% to the population, then the mean will inevitably be skewed to the weaker side of the average Aes Sedai. Meaning that only 12.5% of women would fall between Dagian and the average woman, but more than 12.5% of Aes Sedai fall between Dagian and the average Aes Sedai.

To put it simply, the average woman is weaker than the avarage Aes Sedai. Since the average Aes Sedai is about two thirds as strong as Moiraine, that would put the average woman at about half of Moiraine's strength.

Making Moiraine the strongest possible woman at double the average (which is 50 on the Bell Curve).

So there you have it. If the Normal Distribution (a Bell Curve) applies, then Moiraine should be the strongest possible woman on the planet.

What? I guess everyone from Cadsuane and up don't exist then, in your Bell Curve world.
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Proof that Asmodean's effective One Power strength is greater than Moghedien's... - 03/02/2011 03:22:42 PM 2237 Views
Huh? - 03/02/2011 04:08:29 PM 1167 Views
Why do you deliberately misquote the text? - 03/02/2011 04:12:50 PM 1187 Views
You're deliberately being obtuse... as usual... - 03/02/2011 10:07:09 PM 1120 Views
Right. So Egwene can shield someone of Egwene's own strength, plus Elayne, AND weave a dozen flows.. - 03/02/2011 10:26:27 PM 1117 Views
- 03/02/2011 10:46:40 PM 994 Views
No. Egwene is very close to her full potential at the time... - 03/02/2011 11:44:20 PM 1093 Views
Bullshit... - 04/02/2011 12:39:42 AM 969 Views
Unbiased view... - 04/02/2011 01:46:40 AM 1088 Views
The WoT Board in a nutshell. *NM* - 04/02/2011 02:34:32 AM 536 Views
Yeah, thats unbiased... *NM* - 04/02/2011 05:23:17 PM 520 Views
Don't agree - 04/02/2011 08:30:02 AM 1105 Views
Fair comment, but my question then is: - 04/02/2011 11:26:25 AM 953 Views
I think the WO and Moiraine also Force Egwene as they know what's coming and need her - 04/02/2011 03:55:46 PM 968 Views
It is specifically stated that Egwene was forced by the rigours of the damane training... - 04/02/2011 05:15:20 PM 949 Views
Egwene has been continually forced... - 04/02/2011 06:02:08 PM 907 Views
The direct quotes contradict you... - 04/02/2011 06:23:03 PM 1002 Views
actually the quote substantiates that Egwene is only slightly stronger than Moiraine in TSR - 04/02/2011 07:51:10 PM 1017 Views
here ya go they were all Forced - 04/02/2011 07:59:40 PM 884 Views
Nope... - 04/02/2011 08:23:00 PM 970 Views
I think you may have misused the term - RJ meant 'effective' to mean something a bit different. - 03/02/2011 04:40:41 PM 1146 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. - 03/02/2011 05:30:15 PM 1061 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. - 03/02/2011 05:45:30 PM 1061 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. - 03/02/2011 06:31:34 PM 985 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. - 03/02/2011 07:06:50 PM 1007 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. - 03/02/2011 07:17:25 PM 1004 Views
We still don't know who is effectively stronger, and not sure if Asmo was equal to Rand by the end. - 03/02/2011 06:58:14 PM 822 Views
See my post above, I would say Asmo is Weaker than Moggy... *NM* - 03/02/2011 07:10:07 PM 542 Views
I'm not certain either way. I think it all depends on the terms being used. - 03/02/2011 07:22:01 PM 1040 Views
My impression of your view, in general, is that... - 03/02/2011 07:33:37 PM 914 Views
How... - 03/02/2011 10:15:34 PM 871 Views
If Nynaeve could do to Egwene and Elayne what Rand did to them, then I rest my case... - 03/02/2011 10:36:46 PM 1031 Views
Re: If Nynaeve could do to Egwene and Elayne what Rand did to them, then I rest my case... - 03/02/2011 10:50:57 PM 973 Views
Got you now... - 03/02/2011 11:32:49 PM 946 Views
You're clearly delusional... - 04/02/2011 12:59:26 AM 952 Views
You sound ridiculous - 04/02/2011 02:05:18 AM 951 Views
Re: You sound ridiculous - 04/02/2011 02:23:50 AM 1034 Views
Ok... - 04/02/2011 04:13:34 PM 897 Views
Elayne is not stronger than most AS at this point in the books - 04/02/2011 08:14:41 PM 932 Views
Re: How... - 04/02/2011 08:34:21 AM 1090 Views
They're very close now... - 04/02/2011 05:46:48 PM 1045 Views
That is unfortunately not true... - 04/02/2011 06:02:34 PM 1030 Views
It is... - 04/02/2011 06:05:05 PM 878 Views
Re: It is... - 04/02/2011 06:31:32 PM 1139 Views
Yup... - 04/02/2011 08:20:33 PM 886 Views
Semirhage hated Lanfear, but dared not act against her strength... - 04/02/2011 08:29:24 PM 1308 Views
yet Graendal showed a lot of respect for Semirhage ... even assumed she was the most - 04/02/2011 08:53:05 PM 973 Views
Graendal on Semirhage and Demandred... - 04/02/2011 09:23:50 PM 1240 Views
No - 04/02/2011 11:10:00 PM 1018 Views
CLAPS *NM* - 05/02/2011 05:15:21 AM 570 Views
We will just have to disagree on this one... - 05/02/2011 06:57:36 AM 908 Views
Indeed - 05/02/2011 07:38:10 AM 899 Views
I agree with you ... especially abou the perpective issue - 05/02/2011 03:00:58 PM 993 Views
I agree with you here - 04/02/2011 08:19:35 PM 907 Views
I don't think that's true.. - 04/02/2011 08:21:38 PM 843 Views
Considering that Asmodean and Rand were using a sa'angreal... - 04/02/2011 04:55:03 AM 1113 Views
I think this is a no brainer - 04/02/2011 08:22:00 AM 1057 Views
The nice fact which is proven is the magnitude of the gap between Moghedien and Semirhage... - 04/02/2011 11:32:00 AM 893 Views
Nynaeve could be at 90% or 80% when she faced Moghedien we have no way of measuring that - 04/02/2011 08:42:03 PM 892 Views
Disagree... - 04/02/2011 08:51:55 PM 967 Views
spin it all you like... I'm tired of this arument and your creative quoting. - 04/02/2011 08:56:14 PM 867 Views
The creative quoter is Fionwe, not me. You quote correctly, but your interpretations are way off... - 04/02/2011 09:05:43 PM 869 Views
Nynaeve has grown in strength, but she started nearly as strong as Moiraine! - 05/02/2011 05:35:05 AM 858 Views
Starting out at Moiraine's strength meant starting out at barely 30% of her full potential... - 05/02/2011 07:05:46 AM 912 Views
Nynaeve's strength - 05/02/2011 07:49:07 AM 963 Views
Agree, Egwene has never been as strong as Nynaeve at any stage. *NM* - 05/02/2011 03:03:25 PM 625 Views
I disagree that Moiraine is 30% of Nynaeve. Much closer to 50% of Nynaeve. EDIT - 05/02/2011 03:02:06 PM 1047 Views
Minor quibbles aside... - 05/02/2011 04:05:30 PM 1047 Views
Agreed, the exact numbers are arbitrary, I place Egwene a tad higher than you ... EDIT - 05/02/2011 04:30:00 PM 861 Views
Re: Agreed, the exact numbers are arbitrary, I place Egwene a tad higher than you ... EDIT - 05/02/2011 06:09:41 PM 994 Views
shrugs - 05/02/2011 06:46:02 PM 916 Views
Re: shrugs - 05/02/2011 08:03:37 PM 926 Views
I don't recall the Merise quote you are refering too and they have not been together in the series - 05/02/2011 09:20:56 PM 847 Views
I'm sorry, I meant the glossary entry... - 05/02/2011 10:29:46 PM 902 Views
Thanks for clarifying - 05/02/2011 11:12:19 PM 822 Views
Re: Thanks for clarifying - 06/02/2011 12:42:51 AM 881 Views
fair enough ... I can agree to Cadsuane and Bode both being 70 with Egwene and co at 80 *NM* - 06/02/2011 04:29:49 AM 488 Views
Cool! *NM* - 06/02/2011 04:18:52 PM 528 Views
Sorry, but here your entire Bell Curve goes up in smoke... - 06/02/2011 01:13:15 PM 838 Views
In fact, Moiraine is even STRONGER than I postulated in the above post... - 06/02/2011 01:22:11 PM 1232 Views
well... - 06/02/2011 02:11:02 PM 972 Views
Only a separate Bell Curve for the Age of Legends - when the average strength was higher - will work - 06/02/2011 03:29:49 PM 891 Views
Or, you know, the Aes Sedai aren't a representative sample... *NM* - 06/02/2011 04:19:22 PM 634 Views
I don't think Strength was higher in the AOL I think there were just more channelers - 06/02/2011 04:50:42 PM 943 Views
Yup. - 06/02/2011 05:30:54 PM 864 Views
Trivial - 06/02/2011 06:10:55 PM 884 Views
Uhhh... no... - 06/02/2011 04:18:19 PM 779 Views
Read these facts slowly, maybe you will grasp the implication then... - 06/02/2011 04:41:02 PM 936 Views
you are missing the fact that women like Sharina have no interest in the Tower - 06/02/2011 05:05:10 PM 964 Views
You equate random exclusions with the deliberate block exclusion of 37.5% weakest women... - 06/02/2011 05:41:47 PM 891 Views
wrong - 06/02/2011 06:08:20 PM 1002 Views
That is weak logic in the extreme... - 06/02/2011 06:16:46 PM 877 Views
what I'm saying is that a representative sample of the entire population - 06/02/2011 06:40:51 PM 925 Views
Yes. *NM* - 06/02/2011 06:47:59 PM 583 Views
Yes. *NM* - 06/02/2011 06:48:00 PM 507 Views
But you don't prove that the undiscovered women are stronger. They may well be weaker... - 06/02/2011 07:26:27 PM 771 Views
Amys is far from the strongest WO! - 06/02/2011 07:37:14 PM 1081 Views
Explain the 1000 women they found in Murandy then... - 06/02/2011 06:26:46 PM 873 Views
And a 1000 years ago... - 06/02/2011 06:33:29 PM 898 Views
The only implication I grasped is that you don't grasp math... - 06/02/2011 06:21:12 PM 991 Views
Circular reasoning... - 06/02/2011 07:03:53 PM 935 Views
Agreed. - 04/02/2011 04:32:05 PM 977 Views
Agree. *NM* - 04/02/2011 05:49:05 PM 594 Views
agreed *NM* - 04/02/2011 08:27:22 PM 609 Views

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