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I don't recall the Merise quote you are refering too and they have not been together in the series darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 05/02/2011 09:20:56 PM
Since she makes a statement with no ambiguity, we have no choice but to take it on face value. There's no reason for her to lie, and there are many instances where she could have met Elayne.


I have no recollection of this quote being made at any time. Sorry! Certainly Merise could have met Elayne prior to the series, but they have not been "on-screen" together.

Nynaeve can accomplish what Aviendha can as well. Does that mean Avi is much stronger than her?


Put the quote in context. Aviendha and Merise are talking and Merise tries to convince her to go to the Tower were should could be properly taught. Melaine basically laughs at the comment and notes that only Cadsuane (of the women present) could have matched the feat Aviendha just accomplished. Knowing Aviendha is not at her potential and is around equal to Cadsuane, and knowing she is behind Elayne and Egwene in her growth, you can extrapolate that she will eventually be quite a bit stronger than Cadsuane.


We're also told Cadsuane is very close to Egwene's strength. There being two pieces of evidence placing these two on the same level, and none placing them on different ones, I'm going to go with the former.


There is a mention in a Glossary somewhere that Cadsuane wasn't far behind any of the girls (Nynaeve included), you'll have have to show me the Merise quote you are talking about.

Exactly. Middle grond implies around 50, to me.


Close enough ... she's somewhere in that 45-50 range (I'm going with 48 from now on because I view Nynaeve as a 96).


I don't get this. In proportion, yes, if we just compared raw strength, the list is probably going to look the same as effective strength. But I see no need to refer to raw strength at all. Lists must be of effective strengths, and when I say Egwene is of strength 75, I mean she is effectively 75% as strong as Rand. Meaning she can achieve effects 75% as well as he can, in general.


We are saying the same thing I think ... basically the 100 point scale is only on Effectiveness, but in Raw strength Lanfear is probably like a 75 to Rand's 100 with Dexterity making up the rest. If you take the men out and use a 100 point scale strength and effectiveness tend to be the same thing.

Raw Stength is a same gender comparison only IMO, doesn't matter if Egwene is 60% of Rands strength if she can accomplish 80% of what he can ... then she's an 80 ... or whatever level...

I don't think the bonus is different. Saidar, in general, is required in smaller quantities to achieve an effect than saidin, IMO.


I've never been sure I agree with that, I think it's the actual weaves that give women the dexterity advantage ... they don't have to fight the Power to make effects the way men seem too, therefore it's simply easier for them to accomplish things.
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
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Proof that Asmodean's effective One Power strength is greater than Moghedien's... Shannow - 03/02/2011 03:22:42 PM 2298 Views
Huh? fionwe1987 - 03/02/2011 04:08:29 PM 1237 Views
Why do you deliberately misquote the text? Shannow - 03/02/2011 04:12:50 PM 1254 Views
You're deliberately being obtuse... as usual... fionwe1987 - 03/02/2011 10:07:09 PM 1188 Views
Right. So Egwene can shield someone of Egwene's own strength, plus Elayne, AND weave a dozen flows.. Shannow - 03/02/2011 10:26:27 PM 1190 Views
fionwe1987 - 03/02/2011 10:46:40 PM 1060 Views
No. Egwene is very close to her full potential at the time... Shannow - 03/02/2011 11:44:20 PM 1165 Views
Bullshit... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 12:39:42 AM 1037 Views
Unbiased view... Nargs - 04/02/2011 01:46:40 AM 1175 Views
The WoT Board in a nutshell. *NM* Ghavrel - 04/02/2011 02:34:32 AM 561 Views
Yeah, thats unbiased... *NM* fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 05:23:17 PM 547 Views
Don't agree Sidious - 04/02/2011 08:30:02 AM 1152 Views
Fair comment, but my question then is: Shannow - 04/02/2011 11:26:25 AM 1036 Views
I think the WO and Moiraine also Force Egwene as they know what's coming and need her darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 03:55:46 PM 1041 Views
It is specifically stated that Egwene was forced by the rigours of the damane training... Shannow - 04/02/2011 05:15:20 PM 1048 Views
Egwene has been continually forced... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 06:02:08 PM 983 Views
The direct quotes contradict you... Shannow - 04/02/2011 06:23:03 PM 1084 Views
actually the quote substantiates that Egwene is only slightly stronger than Moiraine in TSR darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 07:51:10 PM 1091 Views
here ya go they were all Forced darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 07:59:40 PM 957 Views
Nope... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 08:23:00 PM 1041 Views
I think you may have misused the term - RJ meant 'effective' to mean something a bit different. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 03/02/2011 04:40:41 PM 1212 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. Shannow - 03/02/2011 05:30:15 PM 1132 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. Master Ablar - 03/02/2011 05:45:30 PM 1130 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 03/02/2011 06:31:34 PM 1054 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. Kieran - 03/02/2011 07:06:50 PM 1080 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 03/02/2011 07:17:25 PM 1066 Views
We still don't know who is effectively stronger, and not sure if Asmo was equal to Rand by the end. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 03/02/2011 06:58:14 PM 889 Views
See my post above, I would say Asmo is Weaker than Moggy... *NM* Kieran - 03/02/2011 07:10:07 PM 570 Views
I'm not certain either way. I think it all depends on the terms being used. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 03/02/2011 07:22:01 PM 1111 Views
Effective strength means who can make the bigger fireball, the stronger shield, the thicker balefire Shannow - 03/02/2011 07:42:17 PM 958 Views
I still hold to the point that your analogy is false. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 04/02/2011 04:20:05 PM 1020 Views
My impression of your view, in general, is that... Shannow - 03/02/2011 07:33:37 PM 989 Views
How... fionwe1987 - 03/02/2011 10:15:34 PM 942 Views
If Nynaeve could do to Egwene and Elayne what Rand did to them, then I rest my case... Shannow - 03/02/2011 10:36:46 PM 1100 Views
Re: If Nynaeve could do to Egwene and Elayne what Rand did to them, then I rest my case... fionwe1987 - 03/02/2011 10:50:57 PM 1057 Views
Got you now... Shannow - 03/02/2011 11:32:49 PM 1014 Views
You're clearly delusional... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 12:59:26 AM 1018 Views
You sound ridiculous Nargs - 04/02/2011 02:05:18 AM 1042 Views
Re: You sound ridiculous Kieran - 04/02/2011 02:23:50 AM 1098 Views
Ok... Nargs - 04/02/2011 04:13:34 PM 965 Views
Elayne is not stronger than most AS at this point in the books darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:14:41 PM 995 Views
Where on earth does it say Nynaeve could do to Egwene and Elayne what Rand did? darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:06:48 PM 1060 Views
Re: How... Sidious - 04/02/2011 08:34:21 AM 1158 Views
They're very close now... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 05:46:48 PM 1119 Views
That is unfortunately not true... Shannow - 04/02/2011 06:02:34 PM 1107 Views
It is... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 06:05:05 PM 954 Views
Re: It is... Sidious - 04/02/2011 06:31:32 PM 1207 Views
Yup... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 08:20:33 PM 980 Views
Semirhage hated Lanfear, but dared not act against her strength... Shannow - 04/02/2011 08:29:24 PM 1371 Views
yet Graendal showed a lot of respect for Semirhage ... even assumed she was the most darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:53:05 PM 1050 Views
Graendal on Semirhage and Demandred... Shannow - 04/02/2011 09:23:50 PM 1310 Views
No Sidious - 04/02/2011 11:10:00 PM 1090 Views
CLAPS *NM* darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 05:15:21 AM 599 Views
We will just have to disagree on this one... Shannow - 05/02/2011 06:57:36 AM 972 Views
Indeed Sidious - 05/02/2011 07:38:10 AM 972 Views
I agree with you ... especially abou the perpective issue darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 03:00:58 PM 1067 Views
I agree with you here darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:19:35 PM 979 Views
I don't think that's true.. fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 08:21:38 PM 921 Views
the evidence is that Aginor burnt out trying to channel the Eye and Rand didn't darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:23:50 PM 888 Views
Considering that Asmodean and Rand were using a sa'angreal... ˥ɐ ʎpu∀ɹ - 04/02/2011 04:55:03 AM 1194 Views
I think this is a no brainer Sidious - 04/02/2011 08:22:00 AM 1137 Views
The nice fact which is proven is the magnitude of the gap between Moghedien and Semirhage... Shannow - 04/02/2011 11:32:00 AM 960 Views
Nynaeve could be at 90% or 80% when she faced Moghedien we have no way of measuring that darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:42:03 PM 957 Views
Disagree... Shannow - 04/02/2011 08:51:55 PM 1039 Views
spin it all you like... I'm tired of this arument and your creative quoting. darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:56:14 PM 934 Views
The creative quoter is Fionwe, not me. You quote correctly, but your interpretations are way off... Shannow - 04/02/2011 09:05:43 PM 912 Views
Nynaeve has grown in strength, but she started nearly as strong as Moiraine! darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 05:35:05 AM 932 Views
Starting out at Moiraine's strength meant starting out at barely 30% of her full potential... Shannow - 05/02/2011 07:05:46 AM 986 Views
Nynaeve's strength Sidious - 05/02/2011 07:49:07 AM 1029 Views
Agree, Egwene has never been as strong as Nynaeve at any stage. *NM* darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 03:03:25 PM 659 Views
I disagree that Moiraine is 30% of Nynaeve. Much closer to 50% of Nynaeve. EDIT darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 03:02:06 PM 1119 Views
Minor quibbles aside... fionwe1987 - 05/02/2011 04:05:30 PM 1109 Views
Agreed, the exact numbers are arbitrary, I place Egwene a tad higher than you ... EDIT darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 04:30:00 PM 926 Views
Re: Agreed, the exact numbers are arbitrary, I place Egwene a tad higher than you ... EDIT fionwe1987 - 05/02/2011 06:09:41 PM 1061 Views
shrugs darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 06:46:02 PM 985 Views
Re: shrugs fionwe1987 - 05/02/2011 08:03:37 PM 1012 Views
I don't recall the Merise quote you are refering too and they have not been together in the series darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 09:20:56 PM 915 Views
I'm sorry, I meant the glossary entry... fionwe1987 - 05/02/2011 10:29:46 PM 947 Views
Thanks for clarifying darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 11:12:19 PM 899 Views
Re: Thanks for clarifying fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 12:42:51 AM 951 Views
fair enough ... I can agree to Cadsuane and Bode both being 70 with Egwene and co at 80 *NM* darius_sedai - 06/02/2011 04:29:49 AM 514 Views
Cool! *NM* fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 04:18:52 PM 548 Views
Sorry, but here your entire Bell Curve goes up in smoke... Shannow - 06/02/2011 01:13:15 PM 915 Views
In fact, Moiraine is even STRONGER than I postulated in the above post... Shannow - 06/02/2011 01:22:11 PM 1305 Views
well... Sidious - 06/02/2011 02:11:02 PM 1042 Views
Only a separate Bell Curve for the Age of Legends - when the average strength was higher - will work Shannow - 06/02/2011 03:29:49 PM 961 Views
Or, you know, the Aes Sedai aren't a representative sample... *NM* fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 04:19:22 PM 669 Views
I don't think Strength was higher in the AOL I think there were just more channelers darius_sedai - 06/02/2011 04:50:42 PM 1015 Views
Yup. fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 05:30:54 PM 926 Views
Trivial darius_sedai - 06/02/2011 06:10:55 PM 946 Views
Uhhh... no... fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 04:18:19 PM 849 Views
Read these facts slowly, maybe you will grasp the implication then... Shannow - 06/02/2011 04:41:02 PM 1015 Views
you are missing the fact that women like Sharina have no interest in the Tower darius_sedai - 06/02/2011 05:05:10 PM 1026 Views
You equate random exclusions with the deliberate block exclusion of 37.5% weakest women... Shannow - 06/02/2011 05:41:47 PM 975 Views
wrong darius_sedai - 06/02/2011 06:08:20 PM 1060 Views
That is weak logic in the extreme... Shannow - 06/02/2011 06:16:46 PM 949 Views
what I'm saying is that a representative sample of the entire population darius_sedai - 06/02/2011 06:40:51 PM 994 Views
Yes. *NM* fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 06:47:59 PM 612 Views
Yes. *NM* fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 06:48:00 PM 529 Views
But you don't prove that the undiscovered women are stronger. They may well be weaker... Shannow - 06/02/2011 07:26:27 PM 846 Views
Amys is far from the strongest WO! fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 07:37:14 PM 1172 Views
Explain the 1000 women they found in Murandy then... fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 06:26:46 PM 941 Views
And a 1000 years ago... fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 06:33:29 PM 976 Views
The only implication I grasped is that you don't grasp math... fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 06:21:12 PM 1059 Views
Circular reasoning... Shannow - 06/02/2011 07:03:53 PM 1001 Views
No, reasoning based on facts and what RJ said, both of which you ignore... fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 07:34:21 PM 1254 Views
If you're going to ignore direct quotes, then we may as well stop right now... Shannow - 06/02/2011 08:42:40 PM 1085 Views
Agreed. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 04/02/2011 04:32:05 PM 1055 Views
Agree. *NM* fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 05:49:05 PM 614 Views
agreed *NM* darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:27:22 PM 628 Views
off tangent question: Has Nynaeve yet to reach full potential or did she already after being ... Bookwyrm - 04/02/2011 08:39:29 PM 1067 Views
I think the general concensus is that after the CK she was forced to her full potential darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 03:44:29 PM 997 Views
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