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Re: shrugs fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 05/02/2011 08:03:37 PM

Merise hasn't been in the same room as Elayne or Egwene. I don't think there is a direct quote anywhere in the series comparing Egwene or Elayne to Cadsuane.

How do you know that Merise hasn't been in the same room as Elayne or Egwene?

Since she makes a statement with no ambiguity, we have no choice but to take it on face value. There's no reason for her to lie, and there are many instances where she could have met Elayne.

In TGS Melaine tells Aviendha that only Cadsuane would have been able to accomplish what Aviendha did with the water during the bubble of evil ... which illustrates that Aviendha has a significantly more potential than Cadsuane as we know she's probably not even as far along in her growth as Elayne.

How? Nynaeve can accomplish what Aviendha can as well. Does that mean Avi is much stronger than her?


You are correct ... I actually do have Nicola placed below Cadsuane on my list, around the same level as Mielyn and Karene.

Agreed on that much at least.


I think Bode is stronger than Cadsuane. Egwene's quote makes it clear that Bode is very close to her in potential. No mention is made of the 1000 years comment because it's irrelevant now that they have Sharina, Nynaeve, Egwene, Elayne and Bode!

We're also told Cadsuane is very close to Egwene's strength. There being two pieces of evidence placing these two on the same level, and none placing them on different ones, I'm going to go with the former.


That actually makes my argument that Moiraine is less than a 50 stronger. 50 sisters ahead of her level ... given Bell Curves that means there would be even more than that of equal strength ... but she's right around that middle ground ... no doubt in my mind, I typically just assume she's about 50% of Nynaeve.

Exactly. Middle grond implies around 50, to me.


We're so close in how we see this it's not even an argument ... only real difference is I's just bump everyone except for Bode down about 5 points. Trivial.

Yup.


I think when comparing women to women effective and raw are probably the same ...

I don't get this. In proportion, yes, if we just compared raw strength, the list is probably going to look the same as effective strength. But I see no need to refer to raw strength at all. Lists must be of effective strengths, and when I say Egwene is of strength 75, I mean she is effectively 75% as strong as Rand. Meaning she can achieve effects 75% as well as he can, in general.

not when looking cross gender ... which is what makes me wonder how the "dexterity bonus" actually works ... is it universally the same for all women (i.e. a flat 25%) or does it differ from woman to woman like strength (i.e. Egwene has a 30% while Moghedien has a 22% etc...) it could very well be that the stronger the woman the more dexterity bonus she gets too ... we have almost nothing to go on from this only that it exists and is significant enough to offset several levels of strength between men and women.

I don't think the bonus is different. Saidar, in general, is required in smaller quantities to achieve an effect than saidin, IMO.


I think we have a lot of strength generated based on different scales actually... IMO in the early stages when Elayne or Aviendha estimate strength they are talking in terms of full potential as it's likely what they immediately sense. But when an AS or other well trained women speak of it they are speaking in terms of the "at this moment" Strength... which is probably why there is some confusion in the text about who is stronger than who ... for instance, it's possible that Tamela and Viendre have equal or even less Potential than Elayne and are merely stronger at that moment in time since Elayne and Avi have not yet peaked. Elayne has had far more training at this point in the series so she is likely talking about "of the moment" strength (although this could also be a case of both potential and current level being higher). Much as Reanne almost certainly was comparing Alivia's strength to Nynaeve's current level... not to Nynaeve's potential which is a moot comparison if Nynaeve had not peaked yet.

Agreed.
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Proof that Asmodean's effective One Power strength is greater than Moghedien's... Shannow - 03/02/2011 03:22:42 PM 2223 Views
Huh? fionwe1987 - 03/02/2011 04:08:29 PM 1157 Views
Why do you deliberately misquote the text? Shannow - 03/02/2011 04:12:50 PM 1174 Views
You're deliberately being obtuse... as usual... fionwe1987 - 03/02/2011 10:07:09 PM 1106 Views
Right. So Egwene can shield someone of Egwene's own strength, plus Elayne, AND weave a dozen flows.. Shannow - 03/02/2011 10:26:27 PM 1107 Views
fionwe1987 - 03/02/2011 10:46:40 PM 987 Views
No. Egwene is very close to her full potential at the time... Shannow - 03/02/2011 11:44:20 PM 1076 Views
Bullshit... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 12:39:42 AM 957 Views
Unbiased view... Nargs - 04/02/2011 01:46:40 AM 1072 Views
The WoT Board in a nutshell. *NM* Ghavrel - 04/02/2011 02:34:32 AM 530 Views
Yeah, thats unbiased... *NM* fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 05:23:17 PM 516 Views
Don't agree Sidious - 04/02/2011 08:30:02 AM 1087 Views
Fair comment, but my question then is: Shannow - 04/02/2011 11:26:25 AM 939 Views
I think the WO and Moiraine also Force Egwene as they know what's coming and need her darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 03:55:46 PM 956 Views
It is specifically stated that Egwene was forced by the rigours of the damane training... Shannow - 04/02/2011 05:15:20 PM 941 Views
Egwene has been continually forced... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 06:02:08 PM 898 Views
The direct quotes contradict you... Shannow - 04/02/2011 06:23:03 PM 987 Views
actually the quote substantiates that Egwene is only slightly stronger than Moiraine in TSR darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 07:51:10 PM 1004 Views
here ya go they were all Forced darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 07:59:40 PM 872 Views
Nope... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 08:23:00 PM 958 Views
I think you may have misused the term - RJ meant 'effective' to mean something a bit different. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 03/02/2011 04:40:41 PM 1137 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. Shannow - 03/02/2011 05:30:15 PM 1047 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. Master Ablar - 03/02/2011 05:45:30 PM 1047 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 03/02/2011 06:31:34 PM 974 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. Kieran - 03/02/2011 07:06:50 PM 992 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 03/02/2011 07:17:25 PM 989 Views
We still don't know who is effectively stronger, and not sure if Asmo was equal to Rand by the end. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 03/02/2011 06:58:14 PM 804 Views
See my post above, I would say Asmo is Weaker than Moggy... *NM* Kieran - 03/02/2011 07:10:07 PM 536 Views
I'm not certain either way. I think it all depends on the terms being used. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 03/02/2011 07:22:01 PM 1020 Views
Effective strength means who can make the bigger fireball, the stronger shield, the thicker balefire Shannow - 03/02/2011 07:42:17 PM 886 Views
I still hold to the point that your analogy is false. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 04/02/2011 04:20:05 PM 945 Views
My impression of your view, in general, is that... Shannow - 03/02/2011 07:33:37 PM 893 Views
How... fionwe1987 - 03/02/2011 10:15:34 PM 857 Views
If Nynaeve could do to Egwene and Elayne what Rand did to them, then I rest my case... Shannow - 03/02/2011 10:36:46 PM 1010 Views
Re: If Nynaeve could do to Egwene and Elayne what Rand did to them, then I rest my case... fionwe1987 - 03/02/2011 10:50:57 PM 959 Views
Got you now... Shannow - 03/02/2011 11:32:49 PM 936 Views
You're clearly delusional... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 12:59:26 AM 939 Views
You sound ridiculous Nargs - 04/02/2011 02:05:18 AM 932 Views
Re: You sound ridiculous Kieran - 04/02/2011 02:23:50 AM 1023 Views
Ok... Nargs - 04/02/2011 04:13:34 PM 883 Views
Elayne is not stronger than most AS at this point in the books darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:14:41 PM 922 Views
Where on earth does it say Nynaeve could do to Egwene and Elayne what Rand did? darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:06:48 PM 975 Views
Re: How... Sidious - 04/02/2011 08:34:21 AM 1082 Views
They're very close now... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 05:46:48 PM 1031 Views
That is unfortunately not true... Shannow - 04/02/2011 06:02:34 PM 1015 Views
It is... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 06:05:05 PM 866 Views
Re: It is... Sidious - 04/02/2011 06:31:32 PM 1122 Views
Yup... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 08:20:33 PM 875 Views
Semirhage hated Lanfear, but dared not act against her strength... Shannow - 04/02/2011 08:29:24 PM 1292 Views
yet Graendal showed a lot of respect for Semirhage ... even assumed she was the most darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:53:05 PM 959 Views
Graendal on Semirhage and Demandred... Shannow - 04/02/2011 09:23:50 PM 1226 Views
No Sidious - 04/02/2011 11:10:00 PM 1000 Views
CLAPS *NM* darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 05:15:21 AM 566 Views
We will just have to disagree on this one... Shannow - 05/02/2011 06:57:36 AM 891 Views
Indeed Sidious - 05/02/2011 07:38:10 AM 882 Views
I agree with you ... especially abou the perpective issue darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 03:00:58 PM 981 Views
I agree with you here darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:19:35 PM 894 Views
I don't think that's true.. fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 08:21:38 PM 831 Views
the evidence is that Aginor burnt out trying to channel the Eye and Rand didn't darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:23:50 PM 795 Views
Considering that Asmodean and Rand were using a sa'angreal... ˥ɐ ʎpu∀ɹ - 04/02/2011 04:55:03 AM 1095 Views
I think this is a no brainer Sidious - 04/02/2011 08:22:00 AM 1040 Views
The nice fact which is proven is the magnitude of the gap between Moghedien and Semirhage... Shannow - 04/02/2011 11:32:00 AM 881 Views
Nynaeve could be at 90% or 80% when she faced Moghedien we have no way of measuring that darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:42:03 PM 878 Views
Disagree... Shannow - 04/02/2011 08:51:55 PM 953 Views
spin it all you like... I'm tired of this arument and your creative quoting. darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:56:14 PM 859 Views
The creative quoter is Fionwe, not me. You quote correctly, but your interpretations are way off... Shannow - 04/02/2011 09:05:43 PM 859 Views
Nynaeve has grown in strength, but she started nearly as strong as Moiraine! darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 05:35:05 AM 844 Views
Starting out at Moiraine's strength meant starting out at barely 30% of her full potential... Shannow - 05/02/2011 07:05:46 AM 897 Views
Nynaeve's strength Sidious - 05/02/2011 07:49:07 AM 952 Views
Agree, Egwene has never been as strong as Nynaeve at any stage. *NM* darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 03:03:25 PM 623 Views
I disagree that Moiraine is 30% of Nynaeve. Much closer to 50% of Nynaeve. EDIT darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 03:02:06 PM 1032 Views
Minor quibbles aside... fionwe1987 - 05/02/2011 04:05:30 PM 1030 Views
Agreed, the exact numbers are arbitrary, I place Egwene a tad higher than you ... EDIT darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 04:30:00 PM 844 Views
Re: Agreed, the exact numbers are arbitrary, I place Egwene a tad higher than you ... EDIT fionwe1987 - 05/02/2011 06:09:41 PM 980 Views
shrugs darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 06:46:02 PM 906 Views
Re: shrugs fionwe1987 - 05/02/2011 08:03:37 PM 907 Views
I don't recall the Merise quote you are refering too and they have not been together in the series darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 09:20:56 PM 833 Views
I'm sorry, I meant the glossary entry... fionwe1987 - 05/02/2011 10:29:46 PM 887 Views
Thanks for clarifying darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 11:12:19 PM 805 Views
Re: Thanks for clarifying fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 12:42:51 AM 865 Views
fair enough ... I can agree to Cadsuane and Bode both being 70 with Egwene and co at 80 *NM* darius_sedai - 06/02/2011 04:29:49 AM 481 Views
Cool! *NM* fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 04:18:52 PM 524 Views
Sorry, but here your entire Bell Curve goes up in smoke... Shannow - 06/02/2011 01:13:15 PM 819 Views
In fact, Moiraine is even STRONGER than I postulated in the above post... Shannow - 06/02/2011 01:22:11 PM 1213 Views
well... Sidious - 06/02/2011 02:11:02 PM 955 Views
Only a separate Bell Curve for the Age of Legends - when the average strength was higher - will work Shannow - 06/02/2011 03:29:49 PM 877 Views
Or, you know, the Aes Sedai aren't a representative sample... *NM* fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 04:19:22 PM 628 Views
I don't think Strength was higher in the AOL I think there were just more channelers darius_sedai - 06/02/2011 04:50:42 PM 933 Views
Yup. fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 05:30:54 PM 853 Views
Trivial darius_sedai - 06/02/2011 06:10:55 PM 869 Views
Uhhh... no... fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 04:18:19 PM 768 Views
Read these facts slowly, maybe you will grasp the implication then... Shannow - 06/02/2011 04:41:02 PM 921 Views
you are missing the fact that women like Sharina have no interest in the Tower darius_sedai - 06/02/2011 05:05:10 PM 952 Views
You equate random exclusions with the deliberate block exclusion of 37.5% weakest women... Shannow - 06/02/2011 05:41:47 PM 875 Views
wrong darius_sedai - 06/02/2011 06:08:20 PM 985 Views
That is weak logic in the extreme... Shannow - 06/02/2011 06:16:46 PM 856 Views
what I'm saying is that a representative sample of the entire population darius_sedai - 06/02/2011 06:40:51 PM 915 Views
Yes. *NM* fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 06:47:59 PM 577 Views
Yes. *NM* fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 06:48:00 PM 502 Views
But you don't prove that the undiscovered women are stronger. They may well be weaker... Shannow - 06/02/2011 07:26:27 PM 755 Views
Amys is far from the strongest WO! fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 07:37:14 PM 1067 Views
Explain the 1000 women they found in Murandy then... fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 06:26:46 PM 861 Views
And a 1000 years ago... fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 06:33:29 PM 885 Views
The only implication I grasped is that you don't grasp math... fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 06:21:12 PM 977 Views
Circular reasoning... Shannow - 06/02/2011 07:03:53 PM 922 Views
No, reasoning based on facts and what RJ said, both of which you ignore... fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 07:34:21 PM 1170 Views
If you're going to ignore direct quotes, then we may as well stop right now... Shannow - 06/02/2011 08:42:40 PM 999 Views
Agreed. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 04/02/2011 04:32:05 PM 964 Views
Agree. *NM* fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 05:49:05 PM 585 Views
agreed *NM* darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:27:22 PM 601 Views
off tangent question: Has Nynaeve yet to reach full potential or did she already after being ... Bookwyrm - 04/02/2011 08:39:29 PM 991 Views
I think the general concensus is that after the CK she was forced to her full potential darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 03:44:29 PM 931 Views
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