I disagree that Moiraine is 30% of Nynaeve. Much closer to 50% of Nynaeve. EDIT
darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 05/02/2011 03:02:06 PM
Your arbitrary scale making Nynaeve only an 85 is laughable to begin with, and assuming the strongest AS are maybe in the 30s when the Author himself speaks of a bell curve distribution is even more astounding. The quotes and scales work just as easily and map better to a Bell Curve if you have
Lanfear: 100
Cyndane/Aliva:98
Graendal/Sharina: 97
Nynaeve: 96
Semirhage: 95
Mesaana:94
Moghedien: 88
Egwene: 80
Bode: 75
Cadsuane:65
Moiraine: 45
Verin: 30
Daigian:15
Morgase: 1
Suddenly you you start seeing a mass of women in the range between Cadsuane and say Verin (the bulk of where a Bell Curve average would fall) then a tapering off at the weaker end of the BC as you get down toward Daigian and even more so as you head down to Morgase.
on RJs scale that would make Level 21 Semirhage and up, Moghedien and Mesaana at level 20, Egwene 19, Bode 18, Cadsuane 17, Moiraine would probably be the lower end of 15 and Verin 12 and Daigian the bottom part of level 9, probably Daigian is about 2x Sorilea who would be like a level 4 or 5.
RJ also claimed that there were "several levels" of male strength above the 21 female levels ... so Rand on this scale would be something like a 125 ... give women a 25% dexterity bonus to compensate for effectiveness and suddenly you have Nynaeve at the same effective level as someone such as Sammael and Graendal effectively the same as a Demandred.
Egwene would be about 80% as effectively strong as Rand in ultimate Potential, but only have about 60% of his raw strength.
When she met up with him in TSR she was probably around a 48 (slightly stronger than Moiraine) to his 110 in Raw terms (he was already in FS male range) ... Elayne was significantly weaker than Egwene when this event took place so she was likely no more than a 25 ... and they were not linked ... it's no wonder they felt like kittens being manhandled and it would explain why Egwene thinks Nynaeve could come close to the effects she was seeing from Rand ... at this point Nynaeve was a mid-80s level and with a dexterity bonus would have been close to Rand on an Effective level, Further, it explains why Lanfear was MORE effective than Rand when he dueled her a book later. He still had room to grown and she was at maximum effective strength, thus he was dueling someone stronger ... and losing, based on that and a huge gap in skill.
It also explains how Egwene can be as strong as Melaine and Amys combined yet still have a significant gap up to Nynaeve and why Reanne would have considered Alivia "considerably" stronger than Nynaeve in POD ... Nynaeve at 90% of her potential would feel significantly weaker than Alivia to a woman who's total strength is around a 40 ... the difference between Alivia and Nynave would be something like 25% of Reanne's total strength, where from Alivia's view point Nynaeve is only about 10% weaker than her and still has room to grow.
And it illustrates the authors comment that Egwene was a step down from the Forsaken ... on your scale she's like 5 steps down.
Lanfear: 100
Cyndane/Aliva:98
Graendal/Sharina: 97
Nynaeve: 96
Semirhage: 95
Mesaana:94
Moghedien: 88
Egwene: 80
Bode: 75
Cadsuane:65
Moiraine: 45
Verin: 30
Daigian:15
Morgase: 1
Suddenly you you start seeing a mass of women in the range between Cadsuane and say Verin (the bulk of where a Bell Curve average would fall) then a tapering off at the weaker end of the BC as you get down toward Daigian and even more so as you head down to Morgase.
on RJs scale that would make Level 21 Semirhage and up, Moghedien and Mesaana at level 20, Egwene 19, Bode 18, Cadsuane 17, Moiraine would probably be the lower end of 15 and Verin 12 and Daigian the bottom part of level 9, probably Daigian is about 2x Sorilea who would be like a level 4 or 5.
RJ also claimed that there were "several levels" of male strength above the 21 female levels ... so Rand on this scale would be something like a 125 ... give women a 25% dexterity bonus to compensate for effectiveness and suddenly you have Nynaeve at the same effective level as someone such as Sammael and Graendal effectively the same as a Demandred.
Egwene would be about 80% as effectively strong as Rand in ultimate Potential, but only have about 60% of his raw strength.
When she met up with him in TSR she was probably around a 48 (slightly stronger than Moiraine) to his 110 in Raw terms (he was already in FS male range) ... Elayne was significantly weaker than Egwene when this event took place so she was likely no more than a 25 ... and they were not linked ... it's no wonder they felt like kittens being manhandled and it would explain why Egwene thinks Nynaeve could come close to the effects she was seeing from Rand ... at this point Nynaeve was a mid-80s level and with a dexterity bonus would have been close to Rand on an Effective level, Further, it explains why Lanfear was MORE effective than Rand when he dueled her a book later. He still had room to grown and she was at maximum effective strength, thus he was dueling someone stronger ... and losing, based on that and a huge gap in skill.
It also explains how Egwene can be as strong as Melaine and Amys combined yet still have a significant gap up to Nynaeve and why Reanne would have considered Alivia "considerably" stronger than Nynaeve in POD ... Nynaeve at 90% of her potential would feel significantly weaker than Alivia to a woman who's total strength is around a 40 ... the difference between Alivia and Nynave would be something like 25% of Reanne's total strength, where from Alivia's view point Nynaeve is only about 10% weaker than her and still has room to grow.
And it illustrates the authors comment that Egwene was a step down from the Forsaken ... on your scale she's like 5 steps down.
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
This message last edited by darius_sedai on 05/02/2011 at 04:40:33 PM
Proof that Asmodean's effective One Power strength is greater than Moghedien's...
03/02/2011 03:22:42 PM
- 2223 Views
Huh?
03/02/2011 04:08:29 PM
- 1156 Views
Why do you deliberately misquote the text?
03/02/2011 04:12:50 PM
- 1174 Views
You're deliberately being obtuse... as usual...
03/02/2011 10:07:09 PM
- 1105 Views
Right. So Egwene can shield someone of Egwene's own strength, plus Elayne, AND weave a dozen flows..
03/02/2011 10:26:27 PM
- 1106 Views
03/02/2011 10:46:40 PM
- 986 Views
No. Egwene is very close to her full potential at the time...
03/02/2011 11:44:20 PM
- 1075 Views
Don't agree
04/02/2011 08:30:02 AM
- 1087 Views
Fair comment, but my question then is:
04/02/2011 11:26:25 AM
- 939 Views
I think the WO and Moiraine also Force Egwene as they know what's coming and need her
04/02/2011 03:55:46 PM
- 955 Views
It is specifically stated that Egwene was forced by the rigours of the damane training...
04/02/2011 05:15:20 PM
- 940 Views
Egwene has been continually forced...
04/02/2011 06:02:08 PM
- 897 Views
The direct quotes contradict you...
04/02/2011 06:23:03 PM
- 987 Views
actually the quote substantiates that Egwene is only slightly stronger than Moiraine in TSR
04/02/2011 07:51:10 PM
- 1004 Views
I think you may have misused the term - RJ meant 'effective' to mean something a bit different.
03/02/2011 04:40:41 PM
- 1136 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean.
03/02/2011 05:30:15 PM
- 1046 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean.
03/02/2011 05:45:30 PM
- 1047 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean.
03/02/2011 06:31:34 PM
- 973 Views
We still don't know who is effectively stronger, and not sure if Asmo was equal to Rand by the end.
03/02/2011 06:58:14 PM
- 804 Views
See my post above, I would say Asmo is Weaker than Moggy... *NM*
03/02/2011 07:10:07 PM
- 535 Views
I'm not certain either way. I think it all depends on the terms being used.
03/02/2011 07:22:01 PM
- 1019 Views
Effective strength means who can make the bigger fireball, the stronger shield, the thicker balefire
03/02/2011 07:42:17 PM
- 885 Views
My impression of your view, in general, is that...
03/02/2011 07:33:37 PM
- 893 Views
How...
03/02/2011 10:15:34 PM
- 856 Views
If Nynaeve could do to Egwene and Elayne what Rand did to them, then I rest my case...
03/02/2011 10:36:46 PM
- 1010 Views
Re: If Nynaeve could do to Egwene and Elayne what Rand did to them, then I rest my case...
03/02/2011 10:50:57 PM
- 958 Views
Got you now...
03/02/2011 11:32:49 PM
- 936 Views
You're clearly delusional...
04/02/2011 12:59:26 AM
- 939 Views
You sound ridiculous
04/02/2011 02:05:18 AM
- 931 Views
Where on earth does it say Nynaeve could do to Egwene and Elayne what Rand did?
04/02/2011 08:06:48 PM
- 974 Views
Re: How...
04/02/2011 08:34:21 AM
- 1081 Views
They're very close now...
04/02/2011 05:46:48 PM
- 1030 Views
That is unfortunately not true...
04/02/2011 06:02:34 PM
- 1014 Views
It is...
04/02/2011 06:05:05 PM
- 866 Views
Re: It is...
04/02/2011 06:31:32 PM
- 1121 Views
Yup...
04/02/2011 08:20:33 PM
- 874 Views
Semirhage hated Lanfear, but dared not act against her strength...
04/02/2011 08:29:24 PM
- 1291 Views
yet Graendal showed a lot of respect for Semirhage ... even assumed she was the most
04/02/2011 08:53:05 PM
- 959 Views
Graendal on Semirhage and Demandred...
04/02/2011 09:23:50 PM
- 1226 Views
No
04/02/2011 11:10:00 PM
- 999 Views
We will just have to disagree on this one...
05/02/2011 06:57:36 AM
- 891 Views
I agree with you here
04/02/2011 08:19:35 PM
- 893 Views
I don't think that's true..
04/02/2011 08:21:38 PM
- 831 Views
the evidence is that Aginor burnt out trying to channel the Eye and Rand didn't
04/02/2011 08:23:50 PM
- 795 Views
I think this is a no brainer
04/02/2011 08:22:00 AM
- 1040 Views
The nice fact which is proven is the magnitude of the gap between Moghedien and Semirhage...
04/02/2011 11:32:00 AM
- 880 Views
Nynaeve could be at 90% or 80% when she faced Moghedien we have no way of measuring that
04/02/2011 08:42:03 PM
- 877 Views
Disagree...
04/02/2011 08:51:55 PM
- 953 Views
spin it all you like... I'm tired of this arument and your creative quoting.
04/02/2011 08:56:14 PM
- 859 Views
The creative quoter is Fionwe, not me. You quote correctly, but your interpretations are way off...
04/02/2011 09:05:43 PM
- 858 Views
Nynaeve has grown in strength, but she started nearly as strong as Moiraine!
05/02/2011 05:35:05 AM
- 843 Views
Starting out at Moiraine's strength meant starting out at barely 30% of her full potential...
05/02/2011 07:05:46 AM
- 896 Views
Nynaeve's strength
05/02/2011 07:49:07 AM
- 951 Views
Agree, Egwene has never been as strong as Nynaeve at any stage. *NM*
05/02/2011 03:03:25 PM
- 622 Views
I disagree that Moiraine is 30% of Nynaeve. Much closer to 50% of Nynaeve. EDIT
05/02/2011 03:02:06 PM
- 1032 Views
Minor quibbles aside...
05/02/2011 04:05:30 PM
- 1030 Views
Agreed, the exact numbers are arbitrary, I place Egwene a tad higher than you ... EDIT
05/02/2011 04:30:00 PM
- 843 Views
Re: Agreed, the exact numbers are arbitrary, I place Egwene a tad higher than you ... EDIT
05/02/2011 06:09:41 PM
- 979 Views
shrugs
05/02/2011 06:46:02 PM
- 905 Views
Re: shrugs
05/02/2011 08:03:37 PM
- 906 Views
I don't recall the Merise quote you are refering too and they have not been together in the series
05/02/2011 09:20:56 PM
- 832 Views
I'm sorry, I meant the glossary entry...
05/02/2011 10:29:46 PM
- 886 Views
Thanks for clarifying
05/02/2011 11:12:19 PM
- 804 Views
Re: Thanks for clarifying
06/02/2011 12:42:51 AM
- 865 Views
fair enough ... I can agree to Cadsuane and Bode both being 70 with Egwene and co at 80 *NM*
06/02/2011 04:29:49 AM
- 480 Views
Sorry, but here your entire Bell Curve goes up in smoke...
06/02/2011 01:13:15 PM
- 819 Views
In fact, Moiraine is even STRONGER than I postulated in the above post...
06/02/2011 01:22:11 PM
- 1212 Views
well...
06/02/2011 02:11:02 PM
- 955 Views
Only a separate Bell Curve for the Age of Legends - when the average strength was higher - will work
06/02/2011 03:29:49 PM
- 877 Views
Or, you know, the Aes Sedai aren't a representative sample... *NM*
06/02/2011 04:19:22 PM
- 628 Views
I don't think Strength was higher in the AOL I think there were just more channelers
06/02/2011 04:50:42 PM
- 932 Views
Uhhh... no...
06/02/2011 04:18:19 PM
- 768 Views
Read these facts slowly, maybe you will grasp the implication then...
06/02/2011 04:41:02 PM
- 921 Views
you are missing the fact that women like Sharina have no interest in the Tower
06/02/2011 05:05:10 PM
- 952 Views
You equate random exclusions with the deliberate block exclusion of 37.5% weakest women...
06/02/2011 05:41:47 PM
- 874 Views
wrong
06/02/2011 06:08:20 PM
- 985 Views
That is weak logic in the extreme...
06/02/2011 06:16:46 PM
- 855 Views
what I'm saying is that a representative sample of the entire population
06/02/2011 06:40:51 PM
- 914 Views
But you don't prove that the undiscovered women are stronger. They may well be weaker...
06/02/2011 07:26:27 PM
- 754 Views
The only implication I grasped is that you don't grasp math...
06/02/2011 06:21:12 PM
- 976 Views
Circular reasoning...
06/02/2011 07:03:53 PM
- 921 Views
No, reasoning based on facts and what RJ said, both of which you ignore...
06/02/2011 07:34:21 PM
- 1169 Views
If you're going to ignore direct quotes, then we may as well stop right now...
06/02/2011 08:42:40 PM
- 999 Views
off tangent question: Has Nynaeve yet to reach full potential or did she already after being ...
04/02/2011 08:39:29 PM
- 990 Views
I think the general concensus is that after the CK she was forced to her full potential
05/02/2011 03:44:29 PM
- 930 Views