Active Users:482 Time:04/04/2025 08:05:38 PM
I agree with you ... especially abou the perpective issue darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 05/02/2011 03:00:58 PM
There are multiple indications that there is a significant gap between Nynaeve and the most powerful female channeler.

Alivia is twice referred to as being "considerably" and then "significantly" stronger than Nynaeve.

ON Linda's list on 13th depository - which I sometimes disagree with, but not in this case - she has about 3 levels above Nynaeve, backed by solid evidence.

And this is confirmed by the fact that Semirhage has at least three levels of female Forsaken above her as well - Graendal then Cyndane and then Lanfear.

The gap is real. And as we've said before - there are many factors influencing "who would win in a fight", some of them random.

But this gap does give a clear advantage to the stronger members of the Forsaken. Whether that advantage is driven home or not would of course depend on the particular set of circumstances.


I'm pretty sure there are a few levels above Nynaeve, but the relevance of it remains dubious. If Alivia is 5 points stronger than Nynaeve, and Reanne only has a strength of 15 then she will consider Alivia to have a third of her whole strength as a greater potential than Nynaeve. This will obviously look enormous to her, and she will describe Alivia as 'considerably stronger'. If Graendal measures this difference it will constitute about 5% of her own strength and she'll consider Nynaeve to be very close to her. It's all a matter of perspective.

You only need to have Nynaeve 90, Alivia 93, Cyndane 96, Lanfear 100 to see that it completely fulfills every quote in the series, and still gives Lanfear only 10% greater strength than Nynaeve, which could be akin to the difference between Rand and Rahvin, and no one believes that Rand would easily defeat Rahvin.

As I said, you can't offer real examples of a pecking order among the Forsaken, except for the sole example of Moghedien's genuine weakness and her avoidance of the other Chosen. They do not defer to each other's power and never have. Lanfear is as strong as possible, and has no lack of skill, and I've never seen one of the Chosen defer to her. Quite the contrary, and she's not obviously going to defeat the others if they stand up to her.

I remain of the opinion that any of the Chosen (except Moghedien) can openly and directly challenge the others and stand an excellent chance of winning, as long as they fight intelligently. True, I wouldn't easily bet on Mesaana defeating Demandred in an open duel, but I think he'd have to fight his ass off and would be hard-pressed to win.

You continuously ignore the one true fact about the Chosen... if any of them was truly weak they'd be dead. Its actively encouraged in the Shadow. Demandred wouldn't ally with two obviously weak allies. He obviously recognizes that their strength approaches his and he's keeping them at bay until he can go for them invidually. Mesaana spoke about overwhelming Semirhage in the most recent book. It's obvious that twelve of the thirteen Forsaken are so close in power and skill that they won't easily go for one another unless they really have a large advantage. Even they know that they could lose. If Ishamael or Lanfear was significantly more powerful than any of those twelve, they would have destroyed them. Clearly they can't. You speak about Semirhage hating Lanfear but not being able to kill her, but then why hasn't Lanfear gone for Semirhage? Lanfear knows it will be a huge duel.

I think Brandon's answers have clearly shown that Nynaeve is very close to the top tier in strength. That makes her close to Rand and the other Forsaken. With training she could challenge any of them. Moghedien said as much when she suggested Nynaeve should meet Rahvin unblocked one day.


I still don't think Moghedien is so far below the others (clearly she's the weakest) though. She'd be dead if she was. Lanfear would have gone after her as a potential threat in TAR, or any of the others for fear of assassination. Their contempt is at her cowardice and her lesser abilities with the OP. None of the view her as the kind of threat they view the others because they all know she's too chicken to attack openly.
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
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Proof that Asmodean's effective One Power strength is greater than Moghedien's... - 03/02/2011 03:22:42 PM 2298 Views
Huh? - 03/02/2011 04:08:29 PM 1237 Views
Why do you deliberately misquote the text? - 03/02/2011 04:12:50 PM 1254 Views
You're deliberately being obtuse... as usual... - 03/02/2011 10:07:09 PM 1188 Views
Right. So Egwene can shield someone of Egwene's own strength, plus Elayne, AND weave a dozen flows.. - 03/02/2011 10:26:27 PM 1190 Views
- 03/02/2011 10:46:40 PM 1060 Views
No. Egwene is very close to her full potential at the time... - 03/02/2011 11:44:20 PM 1165 Views
Bullshit... - 04/02/2011 12:39:42 AM 1037 Views
Unbiased view... - 04/02/2011 01:46:40 AM 1175 Views
The WoT Board in a nutshell. *NM* - 04/02/2011 02:34:32 AM 561 Views
Yeah, thats unbiased... *NM* - 04/02/2011 05:23:17 PM 547 Views
Don't agree - 04/02/2011 08:30:02 AM 1152 Views
Fair comment, but my question then is: - 04/02/2011 11:26:25 AM 1036 Views
I think the WO and Moiraine also Force Egwene as they know what's coming and need her - 04/02/2011 03:55:46 PM 1042 Views
It is specifically stated that Egwene was forced by the rigours of the damane training... - 04/02/2011 05:15:20 PM 1048 Views
Egwene has been continually forced... - 04/02/2011 06:02:08 PM 983 Views
The direct quotes contradict you... - 04/02/2011 06:23:03 PM 1084 Views
actually the quote substantiates that Egwene is only slightly stronger than Moiraine in TSR - 04/02/2011 07:51:10 PM 1091 Views
here ya go they were all Forced - 04/02/2011 07:59:40 PM 957 Views
Nope... - 04/02/2011 08:23:00 PM 1041 Views
I think you may have misused the term - RJ meant 'effective' to mean something a bit different. - 03/02/2011 04:40:41 PM 1212 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. - 03/02/2011 05:30:15 PM 1132 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. - 03/02/2011 05:45:30 PM 1130 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. - 03/02/2011 06:31:34 PM 1054 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. - 03/02/2011 07:06:50 PM 1080 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. - 03/02/2011 07:17:25 PM 1067 Views
We still don't know who is effectively stronger, and not sure if Asmo was equal to Rand by the end. - 03/02/2011 06:58:14 PM 889 Views
See my post above, I would say Asmo is Weaker than Moggy... *NM* - 03/02/2011 07:10:07 PM 571 Views
I'm not certain either way. I think it all depends on the terms being used. - 03/02/2011 07:22:01 PM 1111 Views
Effective strength means who can make the bigger fireball, the stronger shield, the thicker balefire - 03/02/2011 07:42:17 PM 958 Views
I still hold to the point that your analogy is false. - 04/02/2011 04:20:05 PM 1020 Views
My impression of your view, in general, is that... - 03/02/2011 07:33:37 PM 989 Views
How... - 03/02/2011 10:15:34 PM 942 Views
If Nynaeve could do to Egwene and Elayne what Rand did to them, then I rest my case... - 03/02/2011 10:36:46 PM 1100 Views
Re: If Nynaeve could do to Egwene and Elayne what Rand did to them, then I rest my case... - 03/02/2011 10:50:57 PM 1057 Views
Got you now... - 03/02/2011 11:32:49 PM 1014 Views
You're clearly delusional... - 04/02/2011 12:59:26 AM 1018 Views
You sound ridiculous - 04/02/2011 02:05:18 AM 1042 Views
Re: You sound ridiculous - 04/02/2011 02:23:50 AM 1098 Views
Ok... - 04/02/2011 04:13:34 PM 965 Views
Elayne is not stronger than most AS at this point in the books - 04/02/2011 08:14:41 PM 996 Views
Re: How... - 04/02/2011 08:34:21 AM 1158 Views
They're very close now... - 04/02/2011 05:46:48 PM 1119 Views
That is unfortunately not true... - 04/02/2011 06:02:34 PM 1107 Views
It is... - 04/02/2011 06:05:05 PM 954 Views
Re: It is... - 04/02/2011 06:31:32 PM 1208 Views
Yup... - 04/02/2011 08:20:33 PM 980 Views
Semirhage hated Lanfear, but dared not act against her strength... - 04/02/2011 08:29:24 PM 1371 Views
yet Graendal showed a lot of respect for Semirhage ... even assumed she was the most - 04/02/2011 08:53:05 PM 1051 Views
Graendal on Semirhage and Demandred... - 04/02/2011 09:23:50 PM 1310 Views
No - 04/02/2011 11:10:00 PM 1090 Views
CLAPS *NM* - 05/02/2011 05:15:21 AM 599 Views
We will just have to disagree on this one... - 05/02/2011 06:57:36 AM 972 Views
Indeed - 05/02/2011 07:38:10 AM 972 Views
I agree with you ... especially abou the perpective issue - 05/02/2011 03:00:58 PM 1068 Views
I agree with you here - 04/02/2011 08:19:35 PM 979 Views
I don't think that's true.. - 04/02/2011 08:21:38 PM 922 Views
Considering that Asmodean and Rand were using a sa'angreal... - 04/02/2011 04:55:03 AM 1194 Views
I think this is a no brainer - 04/02/2011 08:22:00 AM 1138 Views
The nice fact which is proven is the magnitude of the gap between Moghedien and Semirhage... - 04/02/2011 11:32:00 AM 960 Views
Nynaeve could be at 90% or 80% when she faced Moghedien we have no way of measuring that - 04/02/2011 08:42:03 PM 957 Views
Disagree... - 04/02/2011 08:51:55 PM 1039 Views
spin it all you like... I'm tired of this arument and your creative quoting. - 04/02/2011 08:56:14 PM 934 Views
The creative quoter is Fionwe, not me. You quote correctly, but your interpretations are way off... - 04/02/2011 09:05:43 PM 912 Views
Nynaeve has grown in strength, but she started nearly as strong as Moiraine! - 05/02/2011 05:35:05 AM 932 Views
Starting out at Moiraine's strength meant starting out at barely 30% of her full potential... - 05/02/2011 07:05:46 AM 986 Views
Nynaeve's strength - 05/02/2011 07:49:07 AM 1029 Views
Agree, Egwene has never been as strong as Nynaeve at any stage. *NM* - 05/02/2011 03:03:25 PM 659 Views
I disagree that Moiraine is 30% of Nynaeve. Much closer to 50% of Nynaeve. EDIT - 05/02/2011 03:02:06 PM 1119 Views
Minor quibbles aside... - 05/02/2011 04:05:30 PM 1109 Views
Agreed, the exact numbers are arbitrary, I place Egwene a tad higher than you ... EDIT - 05/02/2011 04:30:00 PM 926 Views
Re: Agreed, the exact numbers are arbitrary, I place Egwene a tad higher than you ... EDIT - 05/02/2011 06:09:41 PM 1061 Views
shrugs - 05/02/2011 06:46:02 PM 985 Views
Re: shrugs - 05/02/2011 08:03:37 PM 1012 Views
I don't recall the Merise quote you are refering too and they have not been together in the series - 05/02/2011 09:20:56 PM 915 Views
I'm sorry, I meant the glossary entry... - 05/02/2011 10:29:46 PM 947 Views
Thanks for clarifying - 05/02/2011 11:12:19 PM 900 Views
Re: Thanks for clarifying - 06/02/2011 12:42:51 AM 951 Views
fair enough ... I can agree to Cadsuane and Bode both being 70 with Egwene and co at 80 *NM* - 06/02/2011 04:29:49 AM 514 Views
Cool! *NM* - 06/02/2011 04:18:52 PM 548 Views
Sorry, but here your entire Bell Curve goes up in smoke... - 06/02/2011 01:13:15 PM 915 Views
In fact, Moiraine is even STRONGER than I postulated in the above post... - 06/02/2011 01:22:11 PM 1305 Views
well... - 06/02/2011 02:11:02 PM 1042 Views
Only a separate Bell Curve for the Age of Legends - when the average strength was higher - will work - 06/02/2011 03:29:49 PM 961 Views
Or, you know, the Aes Sedai aren't a representative sample... *NM* - 06/02/2011 04:19:22 PM 669 Views
I don't think Strength was higher in the AOL I think there were just more channelers - 06/02/2011 04:50:42 PM 1015 Views
Yup. - 06/02/2011 05:30:54 PM 926 Views
Trivial - 06/02/2011 06:10:55 PM 946 Views
Uhhh... no... - 06/02/2011 04:18:19 PM 849 Views
Read these facts slowly, maybe you will grasp the implication then... - 06/02/2011 04:41:02 PM 1015 Views
you are missing the fact that women like Sharina have no interest in the Tower - 06/02/2011 05:05:10 PM 1026 Views
You equate random exclusions with the deliberate block exclusion of 37.5% weakest women... - 06/02/2011 05:41:47 PM 975 Views
wrong - 06/02/2011 06:08:20 PM 1060 Views
That is weak logic in the extreme... - 06/02/2011 06:16:46 PM 949 Views
what I'm saying is that a representative sample of the entire population - 06/02/2011 06:40:51 PM 994 Views
Yes. *NM* - 06/02/2011 06:47:59 PM 612 Views
Yes. *NM* - 06/02/2011 06:48:00 PM 529 Views
But you don't prove that the undiscovered women are stronger. They may well be weaker... - 06/02/2011 07:26:27 PM 846 Views
Amys is far from the strongest WO! - 06/02/2011 07:37:14 PM 1172 Views
Explain the 1000 women they found in Murandy then... - 06/02/2011 06:26:46 PM 941 Views
And a 1000 years ago... - 06/02/2011 06:33:29 PM 976 Views
The only implication I grasped is that you don't grasp math... - 06/02/2011 06:21:12 PM 1059 Views
Circular reasoning... - 06/02/2011 07:03:53 PM 1001 Views
Agreed. - 04/02/2011 04:32:05 PM 1055 Views
Agree. *NM* - 04/02/2011 05:49:05 PM 614 Views
agreed *NM* - 04/02/2011 08:27:22 PM 628 Views

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