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Indeed Sidious Send a noteboard - 05/02/2011 07:38:10 AM
There are multiple indications that there is a significant gap between Nynaeve and the most powerful female channeler.

Alivia is twice referred to as being "considerably" and then "significantly" stronger than Nynaeve.

ON Linda's list on 13th depository - which I sometimes disagree with, but not in this case - she has about 3 levels above Nynaeve, backed by solid evidence.

And this is confirmed by the fact that Semirhage has at least three levels of female Forsaken above her as well - Graendal then Cyndane and then Lanfear.

The gap is real. And as we've said before - there are many factors influencing "who would win in a fight", some of them random.

But this gap does give a clear advantage to the stronger members of the Forsaken. Whether that advantage is driven home or not would of course depend on the particular set of circumstances.


I'm pretty sure there are a few levels above Nynaeve, but the relevance of it remains dubious. If Alivia is 5 points stronger than Nynaeve, and Reanne only has a strength of 15 then she will consider Alivia to have a third of her whole strength as a greater potential than Nynaeve. This will obviously look enormous to her, and she will describe Alivia as 'considerably stronger'. If Graendal measures this difference it will constitute about 5% of her own strength and she'll consider Nynaeve to be very close to her. It's all a matter of perspective.

You only need to have Nynaeve 90, Alivia 93, Cyndane 96, Lanfear 100 to see that it completely fulfills every quote in the series, and still gives Lanfear only 10% greater strength than Nynaeve, which could be akin to the difference between Rand and Rahvin, and no one believes that Rand would easily defeat Rahvin.

As I said, you can't offer real examples of a pecking order among the Forsaken, except for the sole example of Moghedien's genuine weakness and her avoidance of the other Chosen. They do not defer to each other's power and never have. Lanfear is as strong as possible, and has no lack of skill, and I've never seen one of the Chosen defer to her. Quite the contrary, and she's not obviously going to defeat the others if they stand up to her.

I remain of the opinion that any of the Chosen (except Moghedien) can openly and directly challenge the others and stand an excellent chance of winning, as long as they fight intelligently. True, I wouldn't easily bet on Mesaana defeating Demandred in an open duel, but I think he'd have to fight his ass off and would be hard-pressed to win.

You continuously ignore the one true fact about the Chosen... if any of them was truly weak they'd be dead. Its actively encouraged in the Shadow. Demandred wouldn't ally with two obviously weak allies. He obviously recognizes that their strength approaches his and he's keeping them at bay until he can go for them invidually. Mesaana spoke about overwhelming Semirhage in the most recent book. It's obvious that twelve of the thirteen Forsaken are so close in power and skill that they won't easily go for one another unless they really have a large advantage. Even they know that they could lose. If Ishamael or Lanfear was significantly more powerful than any of those twelve, they would have destroyed them. Clearly they can't. You speak about Semirhage hating Lanfear but not being able to kill her, but then why hasn't Lanfear gone for Semirhage? Lanfear knows it will be a huge duel.

I think Brandon's answers have clearly shown that Nynaeve is very close to the top tier in strength. That makes her close to Rand and the other Forsaken. With training she could challenge any of them. Moghedien said as much when she suggested Nynaeve should meet Rahvin unblocked one day.
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Proof that Asmodean's effective One Power strength is greater than Moghedien's... - 03/02/2011 03:22:42 PM 2224 Views
Huh? - 03/02/2011 04:08:29 PM 1157 Views
Why do you deliberately misquote the text? - 03/02/2011 04:12:50 PM 1174 Views
You're deliberately being obtuse... as usual... - 03/02/2011 10:07:09 PM 1106 Views
Right. So Egwene can shield someone of Egwene's own strength, plus Elayne, AND weave a dozen flows.. - 03/02/2011 10:26:27 PM 1107 Views
- 03/02/2011 10:46:40 PM 987 Views
No. Egwene is very close to her full potential at the time... - 03/02/2011 11:44:20 PM 1076 Views
Bullshit... - 04/02/2011 12:39:42 AM 958 Views
Unbiased view... - 04/02/2011 01:46:40 AM 1072 Views
The WoT Board in a nutshell. *NM* - 04/02/2011 02:34:32 AM 530 Views
Yeah, thats unbiased... *NM* - 04/02/2011 05:23:17 PM 516 Views
Don't agree - 04/02/2011 08:30:02 AM 1088 Views
Fair comment, but my question then is: - 04/02/2011 11:26:25 AM 940 Views
I think the WO and Moiraine also Force Egwene as they know what's coming and need her - 04/02/2011 03:55:46 PM 956 Views
It is specifically stated that Egwene was forced by the rigours of the damane training... - 04/02/2011 05:15:20 PM 941 Views
Egwene has been continually forced... - 04/02/2011 06:02:08 PM 898 Views
The direct quotes contradict you... - 04/02/2011 06:23:03 PM 988 Views
actually the quote substantiates that Egwene is only slightly stronger than Moiraine in TSR - 04/02/2011 07:51:10 PM 1005 Views
here ya go they were all Forced - 04/02/2011 07:59:40 PM 872 Views
Nope... - 04/02/2011 08:23:00 PM 958 Views
I think you may have misused the term - RJ meant 'effective' to mean something a bit different. - 03/02/2011 04:40:41 PM 1137 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. - 03/02/2011 05:30:15 PM 1047 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. - 03/02/2011 05:45:30 PM 1047 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. - 03/02/2011 06:31:34 PM 974 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. - 03/02/2011 07:06:50 PM 993 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. - 03/02/2011 07:17:25 PM 989 Views
We still don't know who is effectively stronger, and not sure if Asmo was equal to Rand by the end. - 03/02/2011 06:58:14 PM 805 Views
See my post above, I would say Asmo is Weaker than Moggy... *NM* - 03/02/2011 07:10:07 PM 536 Views
I'm not certain either way. I think it all depends on the terms being used. - 03/02/2011 07:22:01 PM 1020 Views
My impression of your view, in general, is that... - 03/02/2011 07:33:37 PM 893 Views
How... - 03/02/2011 10:15:34 PM 857 Views
If Nynaeve could do to Egwene and Elayne what Rand did to them, then I rest my case... - 03/02/2011 10:36:46 PM 1011 Views
Re: If Nynaeve could do to Egwene and Elayne what Rand did to them, then I rest my case... - 03/02/2011 10:50:57 PM 959 Views
Got you now... - 03/02/2011 11:32:49 PM 936 Views
You're clearly delusional... - 04/02/2011 12:59:26 AM 940 Views
You sound ridiculous - 04/02/2011 02:05:18 AM 932 Views
Re: You sound ridiculous - 04/02/2011 02:23:50 AM 1023 Views
Ok... - 04/02/2011 04:13:34 PM 884 Views
Elayne is not stronger than most AS at this point in the books - 04/02/2011 08:14:41 PM 922 Views
Re: How... - 04/02/2011 08:34:21 AM 1082 Views
They're very close now... - 04/02/2011 05:46:48 PM 1031 Views
That is unfortunately not true... - 04/02/2011 06:02:34 PM 1015 Views
It is... - 04/02/2011 06:05:05 PM 866 Views
Re: It is... - 04/02/2011 06:31:32 PM 1122 Views
Yup... - 04/02/2011 08:20:33 PM 875 Views
Semirhage hated Lanfear, but dared not act against her strength... - 04/02/2011 08:29:24 PM 1292 Views
yet Graendal showed a lot of respect for Semirhage ... even assumed she was the most - 04/02/2011 08:53:05 PM 960 Views
Graendal on Semirhage and Demandred... - 04/02/2011 09:23:50 PM 1227 Views
No - 04/02/2011 11:10:00 PM 1000 Views
CLAPS *NM* - 05/02/2011 05:15:21 AM 566 Views
We will just have to disagree on this one... - 05/02/2011 06:57:36 AM 892 Views
Indeed - 05/02/2011 07:38:10 AM 883 Views
I agree with you ... especially abou the perpective issue - 05/02/2011 03:00:58 PM 981 Views
I agree with you here - 04/02/2011 08:19:35 PM 894 Views
I don't think that's true.. - 04/02/2011 08:21:38 PM 831 Views
Considering that Asmodean and Rand were using a sa'angreal... - 04/02/2011 04:55:03 AM 1095 Views
I think this is a no brainer - 04/02/2011 08:22:00 AM 1040 Views
The nice fact which is proven is the magnitude of the gap between Moghedien and Semirhage... - 04/02/2011 11:32:00 AM 881 Views
Nynaeve could be at 90% or 80% when she faced Moghedien we have no way of measuring that - 04/02/2011 08:42:03 PM 878 Views
Disagree... - 04/02/2011 08:51:55 PM 953 Views
spin it all you like... I'm tired of this arument and your creative quoting. - 04/02/2011 08:56:14 PM 859 Views
The creative quoter is Fionwe, not me. You quote correctly, but your interpretations are way off... - 04/02/2011 09:05:43 PM 859 Views
Nynaeve has grown in strength, but she started nearly as strong as Moiraine! - 05/02/2011 05:35:05 AM 844 Views
Starting out at Moiraine's strength meant starting out at barely 30% of her full potential... - 05/02/2011 07:05:46 AM 897 Views
Nynaeve's strength - 05/02/2011 07:49:07 AM 952 Views
Agree, Egwene has never been as strong as Nynaeve at any stage. *NM* - 05/02/2011 03:03:25 PM 623 Views
I disagree that Moiraine is 30% of Nynaeve. Much closer to 50% of Nynaeve. EDIT - 05/02/2011 03:02:06 PM 1032 Views
Minor quibbles aside... - 05/02/2011 04:05:30 PM 1030 Views
Agreed, the exact numbers are arbitrary, I place Egwene a tad higher than you ... EDIT - 05/02/2011 04:30:00 PM 844 Views
Re: Agreed, the exact numbers are arbitrary, I place Egwene a tad higher than you ... EDIT - 05/02/2011 06:09:41 PM 980 Views
shrugs - 05/02/2011 06:46:02 PM 906 Views
Re: shrugs - 05/02/2011 08:03:37 PM 907 Views
I don't recall the Merise quote you are refering too and they have not been together in the series - 05/02/2011 09:20:56 PM 833 Views
I'm sorry, I meant the glossary entry... - 05/02/2011 10:29:46 PM 887 Views
Thanks for clarifying - 05/02/2011 11:12:19 PM 805 Views
Re: Thanks for clarifying - 06/02/2011 12:42:51 AM 866 Views
fair enough ... I can agree to Cadsuane and Bode both being 70 with Egwene and co at 80 *NM* - 06/02/2011 04:29:49 AM 481 Views
Cool! *NM* - 06/02/2011 04:18:52 PM 524 Views
Sorry, but here your entire Bell Curve goes up in smoke... - 06/02/2011 01:13:15 PM 820 Views
In fact, Moiraine is even STRONGER than I postulated in the above post... - 06/02/2011 01:22:11 PM 1213 Views
well... - 06/02/2011 02:11:02 PM 955 Views
Only a separate Bell Curve for the Age of Legends - when the average strength was higher - will work - 06/02/2011 03:29:49 PM 877 Views
Or, you know, the Aes Sedai aren't a representative sample... *NM* - 06/02/2011 04:19:22 PM 628 Views
I don't think Strength was higher in the AOL I think there were just more channelers - 06/02/2011 04:50:42 PM 933 Views
Yup. - 06/02/2011 05:30:54 PM 853 Views
Trivial - 06/02/2011 06:10:55 PM 869 Views
Uhhh... no... - 06/02/2011 04:18:19 PM 768 Views
Read these facts slowly, maybe you will grasp the implication then... - 06/02/2011 04:41:02 PM 921 Views
you are missing the fact that women like Sharina have no interest in the Tower - 06/02/2011 05:05:10 PM 952 Views
You equate random exclusions with the deliberate block exclusion of 37.5% weakest women... - 06/02/2011 05:41:47 PM 875 Views
wrong - 06/02/2011 06:08:20 PM 986 Views
That is weak logic in the extreme... - 06/02/2011 06:16:46 PM 856 Views
what I'm saying is that a representative sample of the entire population - 06/02/2011 06:40:51 PM 915 Views
Yes. *NM* - 06/02/2011 06:47:59 PM 577 Views
Yes. *NM* - 06/02/2011 06:48:00 PM 503 Views
But you don't prove that the undiscovered women are stronger. They may well be weaker... - 06/02/2011 07:26:27 PM 755 Views
Amys is far from the strongest WO! - 06/02/2011 07:37:14 PM 1068 Views
Explain the 1000 women they found in Murandy then... - 06/02/2011 06:26:46 PM 861 Views
And a 1000 years ago... - 06/02/2011 06:33:29 PM 886 Views
The only implication I grasped is that you don't grasp math... - 06/02/2011 06:21:12 PM 977 Views
Circular reasoning... - 06/02/2011 07:03:53 PM 922 Views
Agreed. - 04/02/2011 04:32:05 PM 964 Views
Agree. *NM* - 04/02/2011 05:49:05 PM 585 Views
agreed *NM* - 04/02/2011 08:27:22 PM 602 Views

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